4 ms·

> "Usury" is a word that's gone out of fashion, but sometimes I wonder why, because this is clearly it. Isn't it called "interest"? I take your point though. U

> "Usury" is a word that's gone out of fashion, but sometimes I wonder why, because this is clearly it. Isn't it called "interest"? I take your point though. Usury sounds a bit dirty :)

hprotagonist 8y ago
it originally seems to have meant “any interest at all”, but in the context of that time, it meant “charging interest in a way that’s guaranteed to create debt slaves”
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jerf 8y ago
I found this a very interesting discussion: https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/ https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-... (And I'm not Catholic.) But in short, if I'm getting this correct, usury is lending for which the recourse of the loan is not limited to some specific and concrete piece of collateral. A home mortgage is not usury, because the recourse for the loan is repossession, and the loaner does not (in the ideal case) have any further ability to claw away assets away from you. A critical aspect of this is that the lendee is not in any sense enslaved by this loan, because in the worst case scenario, they walk away from the loan, the home is repossesed, and the case is closed, and life goes on. (Your credit rating will also take a hit. One could quibble around the edges about this, but I suspect that news of the fact you fail to honor your loan obligations is going to get around one way or another, even in an older era.) Sure, it sucks that they may have lost their home, but at least they are not carrying that burden forward and are not a slave. I'm speaking of the standard modern US home loan. All it would take for them to become usurious is to start including clawback provisions above and beyond the collateral, and while I'm not specifically aware of that happening, I'd personally lay money there's someone out there making such loans. I suspect some payday loans are usurious, and some may not be, but I gather most of them have substantial or unlimited recourse to recover their monies? Student loans are usury; there is nothing that can be repossessed. Our government is a full and willing participant in the usury, providing the money, special dispensation that such loans are very hard to discharge even in bankruptcy, and the incredibly self-serving Public Service Loan Forgiveness program: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancell... , which is totally not debt slavery how dare you think our government engages in that, it's just a friendly loving way of getting your loans forgiven if you spend ten years working for them in an approved manner. Note that "outrageous interest" isn't necessarily part of the deal; the recourse for that is to simply not take such a loan. Non-usurious lending with outrageous interest rates still doesn't enslave you, because you can walk away forfeiting the collateral, and you have a clean slate. An usurious loan even with a seemingly low interest rate (or hidden fees or whathave you) can still enslave you.
- hprotagonist 8y ago
  for more interesting reading (even if you're not catholic), John Paul II's encyclical "On Human Work" (Laborem Execrens) is a fascinating look into his mind. What you get when you take a humanist perspective (ie, "people first") espoused by someone who grew up under the depredations of communism but is also aware of the problems of capitalism makes for very lucid and interesting thoughts! http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/doc...

> "Usury" is a word that's gone out of fashion, but sometimes I wonder why, because this is clearly it. Isn't it called "interest"? I take your point though. Usury sounds a bit dirty :)

hprotagonist 8y ago

it originally seems to have meant “any interest at all”, but in the context of that time, it meant “charging interest in a way that’s guaranteed to create debt slaves”

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jerf 8y ago

I found this a very interesting discussion: https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/ https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-... (And I'm not Catholic.) But in short, if I'm getting this correct, usury is lending for which the recourse of the loan is not limited to some specific and concrete piece of collateral. A home mortgage is not usury, because the recourse for the loan is repossession, and the loaner does not (in the ideal case) have any further ability to claw away assets away from you. A critical aspect of this is that the lendee is not in any sense enslaved by this loan, because in the worst case scenario, they walk away from the loan, the home is repossesed, and the case is closed, and life goes on. (Your credit rating will also take a hit. One could quibble around the edges about this, but I suspect that news of the fact you fail to honor your loan obligations is going to get around one way or another, even in an older era.) Sure, it sucks that they may have lost their home, but at least they are not carrying that burden forward and are not a slave. I'm speaking of the standard modern US home loan. All it would take for them to become usurious is to start including clawback provisions above and beyond the collateral, and while I'm not specifically aware of that happening, I'd personally lay money there's someone out there making such loans. I suspect some payday loans are usurious, and some may not be, but I gather most of them have substantial or unlimited recourse to recover their monies? Student loans are usury; there is nothing that can be repossessed. Our government is a full and willing participant in the usury, providing the money, special dispensation that such loans are very hard to discharge even in bankruptcy, and the incredibly self-serving Public Service Loan Forgiveness program: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancell... , which is totally not debt slavery how dare you think our government engages in that, it's just a friendly loving way of getting your loans forgiven if you spend ten years working for them in an approved manner. Note that "outrageous interest" isn't necessarily part of the deal; the recourse for that is to simply not take such a loan. Non-usurious lending with outrageous interest rates still doesn't enslave you, because you can walk away forfeiting the collateral, and you have a clean slate. An usurious loan even with a seemingly low interest rate (or hidden fees or whathave you) can still enslave you.

hprotagonist 8y ago
for more interesting reading (even if you're not catholic), John Paul II's encyclical "On Human Work" (Laborem Execrens) is a fascinating look into his mind. What you get when you take a humanist perspective (ie, "people first") espoused by someone who grew up under the depredations of communism but is also aware of the problems of capitalism makes for very lucid and interesting thoughts! http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/doc...