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The main reason we have often assumed that animals lack consciousness is that animals appear to lack language. And language is an integral part of how humans t

The main reason we have often assumed that animals lack consciousness is that animals appear to lack language. And language is an integral part of how humans think. How would you "think" without language? It's not clear. Perhaps animals think without language and experience a state that could be termed consciousness despite not having language. Sure, why not? But my point is that there is at least some grounds for this "high-horse proposition" because there is at least one important dimension along which humans differ from all other known animals.

ianai 8y ago
So, in music there’s the concept of vocalization. Literally conveying emotion without formed words or formal specifics. Anecdotally, I definitely am thinking first and later applying words to the underlying concept. It takes practice, but it is possible to introduce a lag, of sorts. Further, the best hunters, I’ve heard, are the most empathic. All the better to manipulate prey. Even more, my cat is very expressive despite not having English. I can even identify patterns in his speech that clearly repeat for similar reasons. I spook him, there’s a meow for that. He’s hungry, there’s a meow for that. He’s tried and I’ve ignored 2 attempts of his to ask me for something and he’s pathetically resigned to his fate, there’s a meow for that. (Gets me every time)
panic 8y ago
Say you're drawing a picture, paying attention to what looks good or not and making small corrections. You're thinking in terms of the picture, not in terms of a language. Say you're playing basketball. You're thinking in terms of the ball, the net, the other players, and so on, not thinking in terms of a language. I can imagine that (for example) a bird building its nest finds itself in a similar situation. It's thinking in terms of the nest -- what shaped sticks to gather and where to place them -- even though it doesn't have any capacity for language.
- goldenkey 8y ago
  Birds have a pretty large capacity for language. It may even be more complex than ours especially in corvids. We don't know enough.
  - panic 8y ago
    My point didn't have anything to do with birds in particular. You can think about a cat planning how to pounce on a bird instead if you want. The pouncing cat is thinking in terms of its body, the space around it, and the movement of the bird, without really involving language.
cgriswald 8y ago
A language is just a system of symbols intended to represent objects and things. Any thinking creature must have some system of representing real objects with some abstraction in its brain. Language is only a question of scale. You can also think without words. You do that any time you visualize something. Imagine an apple floating in an empty black space. Just reading these words probably put that image in your head. Now turn the apple around, look at it from all sides, above and below. I can definitely give you directions on what to do, but I have no idea how to think that visualization in words.
- leftyted 8y ago
  > A language is just a system of symbols intended to represent objects and things. This isn't what I meant, or what is generally meant, by language. Humans are distinguished by our ability to generate and understand novel sentences. This isn't a question of scale -- it's not a question of the number of things we have names for. It's a question of the ability to create and understand sentences that have never been created before. No other animal does this, as far as we know. > You can also think without words. You do that any time you visualize something. I'm not sure I can visualize something without naming it or describing it.
deleted 8y ago
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ianai 8y ago

So, in music there’s the concept of vocalization. Literally conveying emotion without formed words or formal specifics. Anecdotally, I definitely am thinking first and later applying words to the underlying concept. It takes practice, but it is possible to introduce a lag, of sorts. Further, the best hunters, I’ve heard, are the most empathic. All the better to manipulate prey. Even more, my cat is very expressive despite not having English. I can even identify patterns in his speech that clearly repeat for similar reasons. I spook him, there’s a meow for that. He’s hungry, there’s a meow for that. He’s tried and I’ve ignored 2 attempts of his to ask me for something and he’s pathetically resigned to his fate, there’s a meow for that. (Gets me every time)

panic 8y ago

Say you're drawing a picture, paying attention to what looks good or not and making small corrections. You're thinking in terms of the picture, not in terms of a language. Say you're playing basketball. You're thinking in terms of the ball, the net, the other players, and so on, not thinking in terms of a language. I can imagine that (for example) a bird building its nest finds itself in a similar situation. It's thinking in terms of the nest -- what shaped sticks to gather and where to place them -- even though it doesn't have any capacity for language.

goldenkey 8y ago
Birds have a pretty large capacity for language. It may even be more complex than ours especially in corvids. We don't know enough.
- panic 8y ago
  My point didn't have anything to do with birds in particular. You can think about a cat planning how to pounce on a bird instead if you want. The pouncing cat is thinking in terms of its body, the space around it, and the movement of the bird, without really involving language.

cgriswald 8y ago

A language is just a system of symbols intended to represent objects and things. Any thinking creature must have some system of representing real objects with some abstraction in its brain. Language is only a question of scale. You can also think without words. You do that any time you visualize something. Imagine an apple floating in an empty black space. Just reading these words probably put that image in your head. Now turn the apple around, look at it from all sides, above and below. I can definitely give you directions on what to do, but I have no idea how to think that visualization in words.

leftyted 8y ago
> A language is just a system of symbols intended to represent objects and things. This isn't what I meant, or what is generally meant, by language. Humans are distinguished by our ability to generate and understand novel sentences. This isn't a question of scale -- it's not a question of the number of things we have names for. It's a question of the ability to create and understand sentences that have never been created before. No other animal does this, as far as we know. > You can also think without words. You do that any time you visualize something. I'm not sure I can visualize something without naming it or describing it.

deleted 8y ago

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