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> On the other hand, blue-collars do non-creative jobs, they usually do not make decisions and do not solve problems; if they follow the instructions, they do t

> On the other hand, blue-collars do non-creative jobs, they usually do not make decisions and do not solve problems; if they follow the instructions, they do their work very well. This is a fairly elitist sort of attitude that belays the likely fact that the author doesn't actually know any builders. If they did, they'd know that rarely do engineering plans line up 100% with reality, and plenty of decision-making and creativity is needed on behalf of the skilled worker as they best try to execute the plans of the engineers.

ergothus 8y ago
Agreed - there are tons of work that is creative. Heck, I think the best workers of any kind are the ones that take pride in their work and try to do it effectively - which even for jobs like cooking food or janitorial work consist of plenty of creativity, decision making, and problem solving. I think it's better to say there are lots of jobs that don't appeal to the workers doing them.
- SomethingOrNot 8y ago
  What better way to refute elitism by mentioning “even janitorial work”; the job so derided by ostensibly successful people that it is the stand-in trope for “low-status employment”.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    I was looking for a job commonly believed to not have creativity, so the stereotypicalness makes sense, but if you want me to confess to elitism, sure...I have plenty of bad biases. The point is not to say I'm free of them but to say they are bad.
vvanders 8y ago
Yeah, the whole point of Kaizen and a lot of process improvement is to involve all levels of the production line to make decisions and suggest adjustments.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
smokeyj 8y ago
Sounds like the conventional wisdom of a post-communist society. The kind of society where bike mechanics don't invent flying machines.
- ecshafer 8y ago
  I really like this comment. I think it's a great demonstration, with actually historical example in how society undervalues some areas of the economy and certain jobs, and that inventiveness comes from everywhere. I know some car mechanics that can take apart an engine in their sleep, and definitely have a knack for mechanics that many mechanical engineers would envy, even with their lack of mathematical training.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    That's a real problem with the development of the society with "professional" and "managerial" classes. They try to protect their position by disempowering others. It used to be priests that protected their knowledge, now it's managers, engineers and other professionals. I see the same in the IT department of my company. Some years ago the local techs could make a lot of changes but slowly corporate IT has taken away power from them and every little thing has to go through architects who then do exactly what the techs would have done anyway. Ford also had to pay more money because the assembly line jobs were so mindnumbingly boring that nobody wanted to do them.
    - ryandrake 8y ago
      A recurring theme of my career development discussions with my various managers throughout the years has been their gatekeeping. Everything is about them keeping their position at the top and pulling the ladder up behind them. “Oh you don’t really want to be a manager! People-management is a pain, and it’s so much less stress to just stay an individual contributor! Anyway you don’t have the background or pedigree for management...” Pretty much quoting Huxley’s alpha/beta class conditioning phrases.
- SomethingOrNot 8y ago
madengr 8y ago
Yeah, but the 90% does line up, any major changes still have to signed off by an engineer.
danans 8y ago
> This is a fairly elitist sort of attitude "fairly elitist" is a very charitable interpretation of that. Sounds more like taking a class construct (blue-collar) and using it to undersell a huge spectrum of workers, while also ignoring the fact that a lot of white collar jobs also involve just following instructions.
agumonkey 8y ago
The reverse is also true.. many IT jobs are procedure following and brainless. I remember a story on reddit or SO about a plumber going into programming without a degree. He had no trouble thinking through most of the logic required saying it's just like its old job.
- braindouche 8y ago
  I'm a programmer and as I told my auto mechanic, my job and his job are incredibly similar most of the time: take the thing, use experience and references to figure out why the thing isn't working, then use tools and resources to make it less broken, and spend a lot of time complaining about the quality of the work done on the thing before you got access to it.
austincheney 8y ago
Actually many of the younger developers I have worked with treat their jobs like a blue collar technician rather than a creative engineer. It is clear they achieved a CS degree they confused for a trade school. It is pretty clear these developers want all the vanity of being called a developer at a major brand without any responsibility to make independent decisions. Proof: Have them produce results without the OOP patterns they learned in school or without their favorite framework.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I see that too. In the 90s a lot of developers were self taught and were self motivated to solve problems. With recent hires I see a lot of people who probably did CS for a good career but don’t really care about the craft. If something doesn’t work exactly as it should they just give up.
  - SomethingOrNot 8y ago
    Remember back in <good old days> when people were authentic and real and not opportunistic fakers? Load up the resentful pioneer module, Billy.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      I am not resentful. It's a pretty normal thing when a profession gets more professional and is considered highly paid. It attracts people who aren't naturally attracted to the job. From observation a lot of doctors aren't that enthusiastic about their profession either but do it for the reputation and money.
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      There is definitely a division between people who are attracted to the profession because they have an intrinsic interest and those looking for extrinsic rewards. I bet asking what age someone started programming is as good an interview question as any other.
      - 8y ago
grawprog 8y ago
My job would probably be considered a blue collar job. I program and operate machines, solve problems that occur with them on a regular basis, have pretty much total autonomy in the decisions I make about how to do my work, I get to be creative every single day, most of the time my boss asks me how to do things rather than telling me what to do. Or may tell me that a customer has asked for something, asks me if we can do it, I, for the most part, will say yes, then somehow find a way to do it and I learn new things and skills all the time. Honestly if my job wasn't like that, I would've left long ago despite the decent pay.

ergothus 8y ago

Agreed - there are tons of work that is creative. Heck, I think the best workers of any kind are the ones that take pride in their work and try to do it effectively - which even for jobs like cooking food or janitorial work consist of plenty of creativity, decision making, and problem solving. I think it's better to say there are lots of jobs that don't appeal to the workers doing them.

SomethingOrNot 8y ago
What better way to refute elitism by mentioning “even janitorial work”; the job so derided by ostensibly successful people that it is the stand-in trope for “low-status employment”.
- ergothus 8y ago
  I was looking for a job commonly believed to not have creativity, so the stereotypicalness makes sense, but if you want me to confess to elitism, sure...I have plenty of bad biases. The point is not to say I'm free of them but to say they are bad.

vvanders 8y ago

Yeah, the whole point of Kaizen and a lot of process improvement is to involve all levels of the production line to make decisions and suggest adjustments.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

smokeyj 8y ago

Sounds like the conventional wisdom of a post-communist society. The kind of society where bike mechanics don't invent flying machines.

ecshafer 8y ago
I really like this comment. I think it's a great demonstration, with actually historical example in how society undervalues some areas of the economy and certain jobs, and that inventiveness comes from everywhere. I know some car mechanics that can take apart an engine in their sleep, and definitely have a knack for mechanics that many mechanical engineers would envy, even with their lack of mathematical training.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  That's a real problem with the development of the society with "professional" and "managerial" classes. They try to protect their position by disempowering others. It used to be priests that protected their knowledge, now it's managers, engineers and other professionals. I see the same in the IT department of my company. Some years ago the local techs could make a lot of changes but slowly corporate IT has taken away power from them and every little thing has to go through architects who then do exactly what the techs would have done anyway. Ford also had to pay more money because the assembly line jobs were so mindnumbingly boring that nobody wanted to do them.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    A recurring theme of my career development discussions with my various managers throughout the years has been their gatekeeping. Everything is about them keeping their position at the top and pulling the ladder up behind them. “Oh you don’t really want to be a manager! People-management is a pain, and it’s so much less stress to just stay an individual contributor! Anyway you don’t have the background or pedigree for management...” Pretty much quoting Huxley’s alpha/beta class conditioning phrases.
SomethingOrNot 8y ago

madengr 8y ago

Yeah, but the 90% does line up, any major changes still have to signed off by an engineer.

danans 8y ago

> This is a fairly elitist sort of attitude "fairly elitist" is a very charitable interpretation of that. Sounds more like taking a class construct (blue-collar) and using it to undersell a huge spectrum of workers, while also ignoring the fact that a lot of white collar jobs also involve just following instructions.

agumonkey 8y ago

The reverse is also true.. many IT jobs are procedure following and brainless. I remember a story on reddit or SO about a plumber going into programming without a degree. He had no trouble thinking through most of the logic required saying it's just like its old job.

braindouche 8y ago
I'm a programmer and as I told my auto mechanic, my job and his job are incredibly similar most of the time: take the thing, use experience and references to figure out why the thing isn't working, then use tools and resources to make it less broken, and spend a lot of time complaining about the quality of the work done on the thing before you got access to it.

austincheney 8y ago

Actually many of the younger developers I have worked with treat their jobs like a blue collar technician rather than a creative engineer. It is clear they achieved a CS degree they confused for a trade school. It is pretty clear these developers want all the vanity of being called a developer at a major brand without any responsibility to make independent decisions. Proof: Have them produce results without the OOP patterns they learned in school or without their favorite framework.

maxxxxx 8y ago
I see that too. In the 90s a lot of developers were self taught and were self motivated to solve problems. With recent hires I see a lot of people who probably did CS for a good career but don’t really care about the craft. If something doesn’t work exactly as it should they just give up.
- SomethingOrNot 8y ago
  Remember back in <good old days> when people were authentic and real and not opportunistic fakers? Load up the resentful pioneer module, Billy.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I am not resentful. It's a pretty normal thing when a profession gets more professional and is considered highly paid. It attracts people who aren't naturally attracted to the job. From observation a lot of doctors aren't that enthusiastic about their profession either but do it for the reputation and money.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    There is definitely a division between people who are attracted to the profession because they have an intrinsic interest and those looking for extrinsic rewards. I bet asking what age someone started programming is as good an interview question as any other.
    - 8y ago

grawprog 8y ago

My job would probably be considered a blue collar job. I program and operate machines, solve problems that occur with them on a regular basis, have pretty much total autonomy in the decisions I make about how to do my work, I get to be creative every single day, most of the time my boss asks me how to do things rather than telling me what to do. Or may tell me that a customer has asked for something, asks me if we can do it, I, for the most part, will say yes, then somehow find a way to do it and I learn new things and skills all the time. Honestly if my job wasn't like that, I would've left long ago despite the decent pay.