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This is how I feel about computing in general. GUIs in general were a mistake. Vim is fucking awesome, and there's no replacing a shell and the myriad CLI utili

This is how I feel about computing in general. GUIs in general were a mistake. Vim is fucking awesome, and there's no replacing a shell and the myriad CLI utilities you have at your disposal. The computer is there to automate repetitive tasks, not create virtual busywork. GUIs generally represent the sacrifice of power and automation for approachability by the lowest common denominator.

beamatronic 8y ago
I have also thought this through to the following logical conclusion: Imagine computer users being fluent in SQL and everyone sharing one giant database. Let’s check Twitter... select message, username from TWEETS order by date desc limit 10 Slightly more realistic is the “semantic web” concept.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  The trend of GraphQL in JS-land is helping move a little bit towards this, since it's a strong reason to have row-level user authentication and access control so that queries can live in the frontend.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    The problem at this point isn't with technology, it's with companies that try to silo in the data users give them.
shawnz 8y ago
> The computer is there to automate repetitive tasks, not create virtual busywork. The GUI eliminated the busy work of setting up your environment to make your workflows easy. It instead provides an environment where a wide variety of workflows are easy by default, although maybe not as easy as they could be with specific configuration like setting up customized keybindings, etc.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Easy but time consuming. I.e. not ergonomic. Also point&click UIs tend to sacrifice composability, whereas keyboard-driven interfaces tend to allow to chain operations and modifiers in a way that makes it ergonomically cover much larger space of possible workflows.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    > Easy but time consuming But learning is time consuming, too. Keyboard-driven interfaces can be more efficient but they are not discoverable. Maybe keyboard-driven interfaces make sense for the domain specific tasks that you do every day, but would you want a keyboard-driven interface for every random website you come across?
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      > would you want a keyboard-driven interface for every random website you come across? Definitely, no. But you can have both at the same time; in fact, in 90s-era applications and in professional desktop software, this is the norm. You build your discoverable UI, but ensure every action is attached to a keyboard shortcut, and that keyboard shortcut is also discoverable. Call it "progressive enhancement" of UI ergonomics, if you like; the point is not to put the ceiling for regular users on the level of your average first-time user. > But learning is time consuming, too. Not as much as time wasted if you don't provide a "faster path" to learn. I'm trying hard to understand, why modern UX designers react to the possibility (not even requirement) of users learning like devil to holy water. That is, beyond the obvious reason - pretty but useless software sells better, as you rate looks on first impression, but ergonomics on repeated use (i.e. after sale).
mruts 8y ago
Vim has a GUI (or a UI I guess), but it allows you to input commands. For some reason we think of GUI as mouse based interfaces in which you click around. There’s no reason why this has to be the case. The most powerful form of computing is having the command line for input but also allowing a UI for the display of information.
- Izkata 8y ago
  Vim has a TUI, not a GUI. Unless you're referring to gvim.

beamatronic 8y ago

I have also thought this through to the following logical conclusion: Imagine computer users being fluent in SQL and everyone sharing one giant database. Let’s check Twitter... select message, username from TWEETS order by date desc limit 10 Slightly more realistic is the “semantic web” concept.

crooked-v 8y ago
The trend of GraphQL in JS-land is helping move a little bit towards this, since it's a strong reason to have row-level user authentication and access control so that queries can live in the frontend.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  The problem at this point isn't with technology, it's with companies that try to silo in the data users give them.

shawnz 8y ago

> The computer is there to automate repetitive tasks, not create virtual busywork. The GUI eliminated the busy work of setting up your environment to make your workflows easy. It instead provides an environment where a wide variety of workflows are easy by default, although maybe not as easy as they could be with specific configuration like setting up customized keybindings, etc.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Easy but time consuming. I.e. not ergonomic. Also point&click UIs tend to sacrifice composability, whereas keyboard-driven interfaces tend to allow to chain operations and modifiers in a way that makes it ergonomically cover much larger space of possible workflows.
- shawnz 8y ago
  > Easy but time consuming But learning is time consuming, too. Keyboard-driven interfaces can be more efficient but they are not discoverable. Maybe keyboard-driven interfaces make sense for the domain specific tasks that you do every day, but would you want a keyboard-driven interface for every random website you come across?
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > would you want a keyboard-driven interface for every random website you come across? Definitely, no. But you can have both at the same time; in fact, in 90s-era applications and in professional desktop software, this is the norm. You build your discoverable UI, but ensure every action is attached to a keyboard shortcut, and that keyboard shortcut is also discoverable. Call it "progressive enhancement" of UI ergonomics, if you like; the point is not to put the ceiling for regular users on the level of your average first-time user. > But learning is time consuming, too. Not as much as time wasted if you don't provide a "faster path" to learn. I'm trying hard to understand, why modern UX designers react to the possibility (not even requirement) of users learning like devil to holy water. That is, beyond the obvious reason - pretty but useless software sells better, as you rate looks on first impression, but ergonomics on repeated use (i.e. after sale).

mruts 8y ago

Vim has a GUI (or a UI I guess), but it allows you to input commands. For some reason we think of GUI as mouse based interfaces in which you click around. There’s no reason why this has to be the case. The most powerful form of computing is having the command line for input but also allowing a UI for the display of information.

Izkata 8y ago
Vim has a TUI, not a GUI. Unless you're referring to gvim.