5 ms·

A Possession for All Time: How Should We Read Thucydides?

65 points by diodorus 8y ago

chewz 8y ago
Why Classics 1 In the book Fourth of the Peloponnese Wars Thucydides tells the story of his unsuccessful expedition Among the long talk of the chiefs, Battles, sieges and plagues, dense network of intrigues, diplomatic procedures This episode is like a pin in the forest Athenian colony Amfipolis fell into the hands of Brazydas Because Thucydides had been late for the rescue He paid to his hometown with a lifelong exile Exiles of all times Know what price it is 2 Generals of recent wars if there is a similar affair whine on the knees before posterity Praise their heroism and innocence accuse subordinates envious colleagues Unfriendly winds Thucydides says only he had seven ships it was winter and he sailed swiftly Czesław Miłosz [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Mi%C5%82osz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Mi%C5%82osz
- B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
  (From the wiki text:) "[...] an exhibition celebrating Miłosz's life and work, entitled Exile as Destiny."
billfruit 8y ago
Haven't read Thucydides yet, but some of the reasons listed for reading him, seems to fit as well to Plutarch also. I think there may be more variety in Plutarch though, because he wrote about a more wider variety of people and things.
- scandox 8y ago
  There's a world of difference. Plutarch is - as an old friend of mine once said - "an old club bore telling rambling anecdotes about famous men". Thucydides work is incisive and focused. Both are enjoyable though.
pseudolus 8y ago
The Melian dialogue (basically might makes right) is probably the earliest and one of the most realistic descriptions of the rationale used by conquerors to justify their actions [0]. People haven't changed much in the nearly 2500 years since Thucydides' death, it's just been a constant stream of new excuses in the form of race, religion, and nationalism. That, in a period of history that we believe to be significantly less advanced than our own, he laid bare an essential truth is a credit to him. He deserves a place on the bookshelves of all, right beside Machiavelli's "The Prince". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos#The_Melian_Dialogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos#The_Melian_Dial...
- B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
  The words there are perhaps the most chilling ever penned - "since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Incidentally, the Venus of Milo statue was found in the island a couple of centuries ago. It used to be a major Louvre museum attraction.
vajrabum 8y ago
The lede isn't just buried here, its almost unmentioned. At the end of this war the Athenian empire was no more and Athens was reduced to being a vassal state and didn't recover its prominence until the Greek revolution in the 19th century. Bad judgement, exceptionalism and overreaching driven by demagoguery lead to the end of an empire--not for the last time.
- post- 8y ago
  This isn’t an entirely accurate picture. In Hanink’s first book, she demonstrates how the classical Athens that we think of today was largely an invention of Athens in the fourth century BCE. To oversimplify a bit, although Athens lost its military hegemony at the end of the Peloponnesian War, Athens and Athenianness maintained a powerful cultural influence for centuries. I think the lede, then, is clear from the first paragraph: classical Athens (synechdochically represented through Thucydides here) is a construct that can be used for diverse ends, and we need to pay careful to attention to who uses it and how.
spinchange 8y ago
Not like Steve Bannon
onychomys 8y ago
The article totally misses that he's important to epidemiologists because it's the earliest good description of a plague. He spends several pages on the Plague of Athens in 430BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens
mark_l_watson 8y ago
I read his History of the Peloponnesian War in the tenth grade. Thank you Mr Chrome! I remember really enjoying it but it may have been my teacher.

65 points by diodorus 8y ago

Why Classics 1 In the book Fourth of the Peloponnese Wars Thucydides tells the story of his unsuccessful expedition Among the long talk of the chiefs, Battles, sieges and plagues, dense network of intrigues, diplomatic procedures This episode is like a pin in the forest Athenian colony Amfipolis fell into the hands of Brazydas Because Thucydides had been late for the rescue He paid to his hometown with a lifelong exile Exiles of all times Know what price it is 2 Generals of recent wars if there is a similar affair whine on the knees before posterity Praise their heroism and innocence accuse subordinates envious colleagues Unfriendly winds Thucydides says only he had seven ships it was winter and he sailed swiftly Czesław Miłosz [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Mi%C5%82osz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Mi%C5%82osz

B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
(From the wiki text:) "[...] an exhibition celebrating Miłosz's life and work, entitled Exile as Destiny."

billfruit 8y ago

Haven't read Thucydides yet, but some of the reasons listed for reading him, seems to fit as well to Plutarch also. I think there may be more variety in Plutarch though, because he wrote about a more wider variety of people and things.

scandox 8y ago
There's a world of difference. Plutarch is - as an old friend of mine once said - "an old club bore telling rambling anecdotes about famous men". Thucydides work is incisive and focused. Both are enjoyable though.

pseudolus 8y ago

The Melian dialogue (basically might makes right) is probably the earliest and one of the most realistic descriptions of the rationale used by conquerors to justify their actions [0]. People haven't changed much in the nearly 2500 years since Thucydides' death, it's just been a constant stream of new excuses in the form of race, religion, and nationalism. That, in a period of history that we believe to be significantly less advanced than our own, he laid bare an essential truth is a credit to him. He deserves a place on the bookshelves of all, right beside Machiavelli's "The Prince". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos#The_Melian_Dialogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos#The_Melian_Dial...

B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
The words there are perhaps the most chilling ever penned - "since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Incidentally, the Venus of Milo statue was found in the island a couple of centuries ago. It used to be a major Louvre museum attraction.

vajrabum 8y ago

The lede isn't just buried here, its almost unmentioned. At the end of this war the Athenian empire was no more and Athens was reduced to being a vassal state and didn't recover its prominence until the Greek revolution in the 19th century. Bad judgement, exceptionalism and overreaching driven by demagoguery lead to the end of an empire--not for the last time.

post- 8y ago
This isn’t an entirely accurate picture. In Hanink’s first book, she demonstrates how the classical Athens that we think of today was largely an invention of Athens in the fourth century BCE. To oversimplify a bit, although Athens lost its military hegemony at the end of the Peloponnesian War, Athens and Athenianness maintained a powerful cultural influence for centuries. I think the lede, then, is clear from the first paragraph: classical Athens (synechdochically represented through Thucydides here) is a construct that can be used for diverse ends, and we need to pay careful to attention to who uses it and how.

spinchange 8y ago

Not like Steve Bannon

onychomys 8y ago

The article totally misses that he's important to epidemiologists because it's the earliest good description of a plague. He spends several pages on the Plague of Athens in 430BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens

mark_l_watson 8y ago

I read his History of the Peloponnesian War in the tenth grade. Thank you Mr Chrome! I remember really enjoying it but it may have been my teacher.