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I have met a great number of people whom I admire for their accomplishments, but nevertheless dislike their habits and actions at the same time. If I met the m

I have met a great number of people whom I admire for their accomplishments, but nevertheless dislike their habits and actions at the same time. If I met the man, and he put his hand on my ass while breathing fetid, rotten words into my ear, I would absolutely knock him on his ass. But I would still admire his hacking. You may choose to roll everything up into a ball and believe that people are binary: Good or Bad. That being unbelievably creepy in person somehow invalidates whatever else someone does that would otherwise be admirable. Your call. I suspect that argument will find a lot of favour with the kind of people who won't hire an athiest, or who cut up their Amex cards when they discovered that Tiger Woods was a philanderer. But I'm not that guy, and that isn't my argument. I'm not saying he's a great man on account of being in the right place at the right time, having a smidgen of the right talent and right motivation to do something that was a crime a the time. I'm saying he was a Hacker's Hacker, and that the definition of the word "Hacker" doesn't have the word "beloved" in it. Wozniak is beloved. Draper isn't. But more importantly, what does it say about us that we consider being likeable more important that what you do or don't do with the technology? It tells me that we haven't really changed anything. Once upon a time we were the geeks in high school that the cool kids ostracized. Due to an accident in history, we're living in a time when a few of us gained fame and fortune, and now we're the cool kids. So what are we doing now that we're in control of the social apparatus? Kicking John Draper for being a creepy old man, that's what we're doing. I stand by my words, which describe my feelings. I say that it's sad that we're more interested in his social behaviour as an old man than we are in whatever he did or didn't do to gain his noteriety as a hacker. We laud hackers for their curiosity. What does this thread say we're curious about. Systems? Or people's nose hair? p.s. It's ridiculous to ask me to have sex with him. It shows that your argument is rhetorical, a kind of populist trick spoken to the audience and not to me. I don't admire his accomplishments because I think he's attractive, and I don't say that his social behaviour is excusable because he's a great hacker. Linking admiration of his accomplishments with disgust for his behaviour is exactly what I'm arguing against, so implying that I'd lose admiration for his accomplishments if I had what you expect would be an unpleasant sexual experience with him underscores the kind of thinking that I'm arguing against. EDIT: Just to be clear, I am absolutely not saying that you or anybody else is wrong to discuss his behaviour. He behaves this way in public, it's fair game to be discussed, and you're entitled to find interest wherever you like. My sadness has to do with the proportion, which is really a group behaviour, or perhaps it's something to do with the dynamics of a forum discussion. Maybe if we each had to pick a topic to discuss blindly, we'd end up in a different place than given the current threaded comment and reply UI. I find that question interesting: Does the character of the threaded discussion really correspond to the priority or importance we place on various sub-subjects?

chaostheory 16y ago
No. Both my post and other posts like ax0n's are not arguing that Crunch is a great hacker, nor are we just focusing on his demeanor and hygiene. I can't speak for the other posters, but I was just doing a PSA, so he doesn't take advantage of any other people through his fame and the misrepresentation of "yoga". I witnessed this first hand, but was too shocked and horrified to do anything about it since I was late to the meeting in Palo Alto (not to mention they were just finishing as I got there). Crunch was actually angry that I refused to do "yoga" and fix his back, which is really unreasonable for someone you don't really know. Although it wasn't overtly or criminally sexual (at least from what I saw), the guy he did it to, said he felt violated and taken advantaged of after wards when I dropped him off at Bart. Others have recounted similar experiences to me. You've made light of that, to the point where I feel you're condoning his behavior just because he's a great hacker; which really pisses me off I don't know what pisses me off more: your posts or remembering that I was too paralyzed to help that poor guy even if I only saw just 2 minutes of it.
- raganwald 16y ago
  You've made light of that, to the point where I feel you're condoning his behavior just because he's a great hacker Your words keep linking the two together. Mine don't. Your words above suggest that I am saying that since he's a great hacker, his behaviour is less serious than were he Joe Average Citizen. That is so far from what I'm saying that I don't know how to explain the difference using mere words. What I'm saying is that his hacking was his hacking and his behaviour is his behaviour. This one over here, that one over there. His hacking doesn't excuse his behaviour for exactly the same reason that his behaviour doesn't devalue his hacking. which really pisses me off I am not responsible for your blood pressure. Unsolicited advice: Never, EVER allow the words of strangers to control your emotions. It's probably just babble, but I find it comforting to frame my own feelings at a time like this in terms of sadness instead of anger. I'm saddened about certain behaviour, but I'm not angry with certain people. Makes all the difference to me.
  - chaostheory 16y ago
    "What I'm saying is that his hacking was his hacking and his behaviour is his behaviour. His hacking doesn't excuse his behaviour for exactly the same reason that his behaviour doesn't devalue his hacking." Unfortunately this is how I understood your previous posts. "hey guys it's not wrong that you talk about his misdeeds but I wanted this post to be about glorifying Crunch. Anyone talking about his misdeeds is lame and not a hacker." You linked to an article about John Draper, the person. You didn't link to EasyWriter or his other work. Now you're surprised when people talk about all aspects of Crunch instead of just one? No one devalued his work. Everyone was just warning of his behavior. Next time do a post on his work, not the person so others won't get confused. "I am not responsible for your blood pressure." I'm only human, not a machine. I don't appreciate your patronization either.

chaostheory 16y ago

No. Both my post and other posts like ax0n's are not arguing that Crunch is a great hacker, nor are we just focusing on his demeanor and hygiene. I can't speak for the other posters, but I was just doing a PSA, so he doesn't take advantage of any other people through his fame and the misrepresentation of "yoga". I witnessed this first hand, but was too shocked and horrified to do anything about it since I was late to the meeting in Palo Alto (not to mention they were just finishing as I got there). Crunch was actually angry that I refused to do "yoga" and fix his back, which is really unreasonable for someone you don't really know. Although it wasn't overtly or criminally sexual (at least from what I saw), the guy he did it to, said he felt violated and taken advantaged of after wards when I dropped him off at Bart. Others have recounted similar experiences to me. You've made light of that, to the point where I feel you're condoning his behavior just because he's a great hacker; which really pisses me off I don't know what pisses me off more: your posts or remembering that I was too paralyzed to help that poor guy even if I only saw just 2 minutes of it.

raganwald 16y ago
You've made light of that, to the point where I feel you're condoning his behavior just because he's a great hacker Your words keep linking the two together. Mine don't. Your words above suggest that I am saying that since he's a great hacker, his behaviour is less serious than were he Joe Average Citizen. That is so far from what I'm saying that I don't know how to explain the difference using mere words. What I'm saying is that his hacking was his hacking and his behaviour is his behaviour. This one over here, that one over there. His hacking doesn't excuse his behaviour for exactly the same reason that his behaviour doesn't devalue his hacking. which really pisses me off I am not responsible for your blood pressure. Unsolicited advice: Never, EVER allow the words of strangers to control your emotions. It's probably just babble, but I find it comforting to frame my own feelings at a time like this in terms of sadness instead of anger. I'm saddened about certain behaviour, but I'm not angry with certain people. Makes all the difference to me.
- chaostheory 16y ago
  "What I'm saying is that his hacking was his hacking and his behaviour is his behaviour. His hacking doesn't excuse his behaviour for exactly the same reason that his behaviour doesn't devalue his hacking." Unfortunately this is how I understood your previous posts. "hey guys it's not wrong that you talk about his misdeeds but I wanted this post to be about glorifying Crunch. Anyone talking about his misdeeds is lame and not a hacker." You linked to an article about John Draper, the person. You didn't link to EasyWriter or his other work. Now you're surprised when people talk about all aspects of Crunch instead of just one? No one devalued his work. Everyone was just warning of his behavior. Next time do a post on his work, not the person so others won't get confused. "I am not responsible for your blood pressure." I'm only human, not a machine. I don't appreciate your patronization either.