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I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one asp

I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one aspect a lot of people seem to overlook in their arguments: pragmatism. The ideal application: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs (next to) nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that automatically shows the user only the exact features (s)he cares about In the real world, we have to balance the project/product requirements. In the end, only these things matter: - It yields a net profit (monetary or otherwise) for the company or owner - It has (and keeps) added value in comparison to similar software - It's fun to design and develop in/for - It has bugfixes and new features in a timely manner, without taking up too much development time - It has a pretty, easy to use interface - It's quick and snappy enough to run Adding that all up, and developing in something like Electron is a no-brainer: mean time between iterations is faster, design and development is more fun and the end user has a product that is fast enough for their needs packed with features. Try that in any low level language or without control over the engine and you'll have to severely hamper one of these goals.

diegoperini 8y ago
This comment should be posted under each Electron vs The World discussion as a reminder by a bot. Disclaimer: I hate Electron. (but really appreciate and admire its developers)
jamil7 8y ago
Pretty perfect summary and the reason why I pick native for side projects and electron for paid work (unless explicitly requested).
fxfan 8y ago
> snappy enough to run > Electron is a new brainer Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. Remember, 91% of the desktop on earth is Windows (meaning regular USD 300 machines). And of them I'd wager less than 10% fit have machines where electron is snappy (1.2K Thinkpads). What the earth needs is a better cross platform native GUI framework. NOT electron.
- faitswulff 8y ago
  > Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. That's not how I expected that sentence to end. I don't think regular people are nearly as concerned with performance as the groups you listed are. Regular people are probably using Electron via Slack for work and if it's slow and bloated it's ultimately not their problem. Even a few seconds delay won't cost them anything when it's still a faster replacement for email.
  - fxfan 8y ago
    How many non-devs (equivalent to the group of RAM < 6GB) use slack?
    - eyko 8y ago
      I work with a few organisations and small teams that use slack to communicate. They're campaigners, marketing types, logistics, finance, HR, and overall general staff working for businesses and organisations. I was also attending some university lectures recently (on history) and the class had a slack account which we were invited to join if we had any questions or needed support. You also don't need to focus on Slack. Skype is an electron app. How many people use Skype to connect with their family?
    - fedesilva 8y ago
      About 6k+ people use it in my org - the vast majority are not devs.
  - toyg 8y ago
    The irony of talking about "regular people" and then using Slack as somebody "regular people" actually use. "Regular people" are likely to encounter electron by using Telegram or Whatsapp on the desktop, or some recent MS product like Skype. Whether they care or not about bloat, I don't know. I know those chat programs used to have annoying problems with cut & paste and not supporting basic assistive technology (i.e. the "emoji keyboard"), but I have to admit they got better with time; if those fixes have made it upstream to Electron, then things are improving. They are still horribly opaque to native OS services like sharing facilities and whatnot, but it looks like OS developers themselves are throwing all that away these days, so... I expect the real issue Electron might never solve is real support for more advanced assistive tech for the visually-impaired and other disabled people. That stuff barely works with traditional desktop tech as it is. Obviously that has never been an obstacle in the market at large, it mostly plays a part in public-procurement processes.
tobyhinloopen 8y ago
I feel like i've seen this argument before, for Java desktop applications
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  And in my experience those have never taken off - just like in-browser applets - because they were too slow. The only Java based desktop applications I can think of are IDEs to write Java with, and those are too slow.
sigi45 8y ago
Slack is Electron. Slack is installed on many laptops. Slack App just sucks and wastes real resources.
- rkangel 8y ago
  Genuine question - why do people install the Slack App? I haven't in ages, I just use the web-app and am very happy.
  - fedesilva 8y ago
    At least for me, webapps are just 1 in a thousand tabs open in 500 browser windows (ok, I exaggerate a bit). For an app with it's own window I can just hit a shortcut and said app gets focus. Disclaimer, not an Elektron fan.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      Same for me. I'm so surprised that browser makers still haven't solved this particular problem in spite of all browsers now being multi process.
      - ronsor 8y ago
        use `chrome --app`
        fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        That doesn't work on macOS.
  - lojack 8y ago
    Different screen share features only work in the app. I'd use the web app if all I needed was chat, but I'm on video calls and using screen share constantly.
  - sigi45 8y ago
blablabla123 8y ago
>The ideal application: >- and has all the features in the world In this case it's okay if it uses up all disc and memory. Actually it can even cost something in this case because only one application is needed. It should be open source though so users can audit it and fix bugs if required. You see, just by requiring consistency in the requirements, one can get very far. Optimizing for typical startup metrics is just one way to do things but not the only valid one.
sh4rk 8y ago
I disagree. The ideal application: - uses no memory - uses no disk space - is instant - costs nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that automatically shows the user only the exact features (s)he cares about The real-world application, when the developers work for the customer and not for themselves: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs next to nothing - and has almost all the features in the world - presented in a manner that automatically shows the user only the exact features (s)he cares about
- johnday 8y ago
  But developers do work for themselves...
- fb03 8y ago
  I disagree. Sadly, we need to balance features, performance and expectations with our own expectations about what kind of software we want to deliver. I sincerely hate Electron and the whole ecosystem of bloated apps it enables BUT having matured a bit i can understand why it exists. People that hold the money want software out and want it fast and they don't care if the customer now needs almost 4 gigs of ram in their phone just to play music or browse the odd website. A depressing state of affairs imho, specially for us "old folks" which enjoyed our software native and optimized as much as we could.

diegoperini 8y ago

This comment should be posted under each Electron vs The World discussion as a reminder by a bot. Disclaimer: I hate Electron. (but really appreciate and admire its developers)

jamil7 8y ago

Pretty perfect summary and the reason why I pick native for side projects and electron for paid work (unless explicitly requested).

fxfan 8y ago

> snappy enough to run > Electron is a new brainer Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. Remember, 91% of the desktop on earth is Windows (meaning regular USD 300 machines). And of them I'd wager less than 10% fit have machines where electron is snappy (1.2K Thinkpads). What the earth needs is a better cross platform native GUI framework. NOT electron.

faitswulff 8y ago
> Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. That's not how I expected that sentence to end. I don't think regular people are nearly as concerned with performance as the groups you listed are. Regular people are probably using Electron via Slack for work and if it's slow and bloated it's ultimately not their problem. Even a few seconds delay won't cost them anything when it's still a faster replacement for email.
- fxfan 8y ago
  How many non-devs (equivalent to the group of RAM < 6GB) use slack?
  - eyko 8y ago
    I work with a few organisations and small teams that use slack to communicate. They're campaigners, marketing types, logistics, finance, HR, and overall general staff working for businesses and organisations. I was also attending some university lectures recently (on history) and the class had a slack account which we were invited to join if we had any questions or needed support. You also don't need to focus on Slack. Skype is an electron app. How many people use Skype to connect with their family?
  - fedesilva 8y ago
    About 6k+ people use it in my org - the vast majority are not devs.
- toyg 8y ago
  The irony of talking about "regular people" and then using Slack as somebody "regular people" actually use. "Regular people" are likely to encounter electron by using Telegram or Whatsapp on the desktop, or some recent MS product like Skype. Whether they care or not about bloat, I don't know. I know those chat programs used to have annoying problems with cut & paste and not supporting basic assistive technology (i.e. the "emoji keyboard"), but I have to admit they got better with time; if those fixes have made it upstream to Electron, then things are improving. They are still horribly opaque to native OS services like sharing facilities and whatnot, but it looks like OS developers themselves are throwing all that away these days, so... I expect the real issue Electron might never solve is real support for more advanced assistive tech for the visually-impaired and other disabled people. That stuff barely works with traditional desktop tech as it is. Obviously that has never been an obstacle in the market at large, it mostly plays a part in public-procurement processes.

tobyhinloopen 8y ago

I feel like i've seen this argument before, for Java desktop applications

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
And in my experience those have never taken off - just like in-browser applets - because they were too slow. The only Java based desktop applications I can think of are IDEs to write Java with, and those are too slow.

sigi45 8y ago

Slack is Electron. Slack is installed on many laptops. Slack App just sucks and wastes real resources.

rkangel 8y ago
Genuine question - why do people install the Slack App? I haven't in ages, I just use the web-app and am very happy.
- fedesilva 8y ago
  At least for me, webapps are just 1 in a thousand tabs open in 500 browser windows (ok, I exaggerate a bit). For an app with it's own window I can just hit a shortcut and said app gets focus. Disclaimer, not an Elektron fan.
  - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
    Same for me. I'm so surprised that browser makers still haven't solved this particular problem in spite of all browsers now being multi process.
    - ronsor 8y ago
      use `chrome --app`
      - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        That doesn't work on macOS.
- lojack 8y ago
  Different screen share features only work in the app. I'd use the web app if all I needed was chat, but I'm on video calls and using screen share constantly.
- sigi45 8y ago

blablabla123 8y ago

>The ideal application: >- and has all the features in the world In this case it's okay if it uses up all disc and memory. Actually it can even cost something in this case because only one application is needed. It should be open source though so users can audit it and fix bugs if required. You see, just by requiring consistency in the requirements, one can get very far. Optimizing for typical startup metrics is just one way to do things but not the only valid one.

sh4rk 8y ago

I disagree. The ideal application: - uses no memory - uses no disk space - is instant - costs nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that automatically shows the user only the exact features (s)he cares about The real-world application, when the developers work for the customer and not for themselves: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs next to nothing - and has almost all the features in the world - presented in a manner that automatically shows the user only the exact features (s)he cares about

johnday 8y ago
But developers do work for themselves...
fb03 8y ago
I disagree. Sadly, we need to balance features, performance and expectations with our own expectations about what kind of software we want to deliver. I sincerely hate Electron and the whole ecosystem of bloated apps it enables BUT having matured a bit i can understand why it exists. People that hold the money want software out and want it fast and they don't care if the customer now needs almost 4 gigs of ram in their phone just to play music or browse the odd website. A depressing state of affairs imho, specially for us "old folks" which enjoyed our software native and optimized as much as we could.