4 ms·

Look at the car towns in Germany and you will see the long term effects of unionization on industry. Companies do well and their employees too.

rayiner 8y ago
American style unions are illegal in Germany.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  Which should be an argument for the reforming and redesigning of American labor unions, not a dismissal of the concept.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Our society is too polarized and our history with unions too negative for reform to be possible. The Supreme Court, for example, was excoriated for the Janus decision--holding that compulsory membership in public sector unions violates the Constitution. But that's the German rule for all unions.
- reissbaker 8y ago
  What specifically differentiates "American style unions" from German unions from a legal perspective?
  - rayiner 8y ago
    In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal.
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal. Any my understanding is that in Germany, unions have much more direct influence over company decision-making than American unions. IANAL, but I've heard German-style unions would be illegal in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Struct... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    From what I know German unions are much bigger. IG Metall covers a lot of industry like car manufacturers, Siemens is in it, Stihl chainsaws, Bosch and a lot of other companies. There are laws that mandate that from a certain size on employees have voting rights in management boards. In general the relationship between employees and employers is a little more cooperative compare to the US.
  - aerotwelve 8y ago
    In America, the principle of "exclusive representation" applies to all labor unions. If employees in department X at firm Y wish to unionize, they elect one democratically. This often involves affiliating themselves with an established union (choosing the affiliate is part of the formation/election process). If a majority of employees in department X vote for unionization, a contract between all employees in department X and management is negotiated. This newly elected union is now considered the exclusive representative of all employees covered by the agreement (i.e. in the bargaining unit). This has the following key implications: 1) No other unions may be formed within this department, and all negotiations between management and covered employees must go through the union. 2) The union has a legal obligation to fully represent each one of the employees in department X fairly and equally. In the states that allow it, this means that even if an employee in department X is not a member of the union, the union still must represent and negotiate on behalf of them as if they were a dues-paying active member. Employees who feel they are not being represented can sue their union for inadequate representation (in the same way that you can sue an incompetent lawyer). (Point #2 is designed to balance out the problems that could come with just point #1.) I go into all of this to contrast our system with Germany's system, where no exclusive representation exists. Some employees in a department may be represented by union X, others by union Y, some may be non-union. The company that employs them will have to negotiate three different contracts to keep this theoretical department running. This system has its upsides: German unions never have to negotiate on behalf of non-members. It can also get extremely complicated. A large company may have to juggle many contracts just for one type of employee. The union that represents some arbitrary group of employees might change from year to year. These are just a few things that American companies don't have to deal with. Maybe this is the system we have to move to in America post-Janus? I don't know, but it's worth remembering that exclusive representation was designed as a convenience to management in simplifying negotiations; I don't think our corporate leaders would prefer it at all.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      Note that there is, contrary to this description, no requirement for union lines to be drawn on internal organizational (“department”) lines, instead, they are generally drawn on job-role lines.
  - blihp 8y ago
    One key difference is that American-style is much more adversarial (each side trying to screw the other) where the German unions appear[1] to be more of a partnership than we managed to pull off. [1] I say appear because I've only been (somewhat) involved with American-style (mostly from the management side)
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      They really are more cooperative. In LA there all the stories where the union prevents people from changing a lightbulb on a movie set if not done by someone in the union. This would never happen in Germany.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

rayiner 8y ago

American style unions are illegal in Germany.

Apocryphon 8y ago
Which should be an argument for the reforming and redesigning of American labor unions, not a dismissal of the concept.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Our society is too polarized and our history with unions too negative for reform to be possible. The Supreme Court, for example, was excoriated for the Janus decision--holding that compulsory membership in public sector unions violates the Constitution. But that's the German rule for all unions.
reissbaker 8y ago
What specifically differentiates "American style unions" from German unions from a legal perspective?
- rayiner 8y ago
  In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal. Any my understanding is that in Germany, unions have much more direct influence over company decision-making than American unions. IANAL, but I've heard German-style unions would be illegal in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Struct... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  From what I know German unions are much bigger. IG Metall covers a lot of industry like car manufacturers, Siemens is in it, Stihl chainsaws, Bosch and a lot of other companies. There are laws that mandate that from a certain size on employees have voting rights in management boards. In general the relationship between employees and employers is a little more cooperative compare to the US.
- aerotwelve 8y ago
  In America, the principle of "exclusive representation" applies to all labor unions. If employees in department X at firm Y wish to unionize, they elect one democratically. This often involves affiliating themselves with an established union (choosing the affiliate is part of the formation/election process). If a majority of employees in department X vote for unionization, a contract between all employees in department X and management is negotiated. This newly elected union is now considered the exclusive representative of all employees covered by the agreement (i.e. in the bargaining unit). This has the following key implications: 1) No other unions may be formed within this department, and all negotiations between management and covered employees must go through the union. 2) The union has a legal obligation to fully represent each one of the employees in department X fairly and equally. In the states that allow it, this means that even if an employee in department X is not a member of the union, the union still must represent and negotiate on behalf of them as if they were a dues-paying active member. Employees who feel they are not being represented can sue their union for inadequate representation (in the same way that you can sue an incompetent lawyer). (Point #2 is designed to balance out the problems that could come with just point #1.) I go into all of this to contrast our system with Germany's system, where no exclusive representation exists. Some employees in a department may be represented by union X, others by union Y, some may be non-union. The company that employs them will have to negotiate three different contracts to keep this theoretical department running. This system has its upsides: German unions never have to negotiate on behalf of non-members. It can also get extremely complicated. A large company may have to juggle many contracts just for one type of employee. The union that represents some arbitrary group of employees might change from year to year. These are just a few things that American companies don't have to deal with. Maybe this is the system we have to move to in America post-Janus? I don't know, but it's worth remembering that exclusive representation was designed as a convenience to management in simplifying negotiations; I don't think our corporate leaders would prefer it at all.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    Note that there is, contrary to this description, no requirement for union lines to be drawn on internal organizational (“department”) lines, instead, they are generally drawn on job-role lines.
- blihp 8y ago
  One key difference is that American-style is much more adversarial (each side trying to screw the other) where the German unions appear[1] to be more of a partnership than we managed to pull off. [1] I say appear because I've only been (somewhat) involved with American-style (mostly from the management side)
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    They really are more cooperative. In LA there all the stories where the union prevents people from changing a lightbulb on a movie set if not done by someone in the union. This would never happen in Germany.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]