7 ms·

This is great news. Other industries, including software and IT, would stand to benefit from unionization, as well.

CryptoPunk 8y ago
Look at Detroit in the 1950s (highest median income in the US) and look at it today (a ghost town), to see the long term effects of unionization on industry. The reason the US software industry has been getting stronger and producing ever greater numbers of high paying jobs is that it enjoys the efficiencies of a free market in labor, aka it's not dominated by monopolizing unions.
- freeone3000 8y ago
  The impact of the gas crisis, a preference for foreign imports, and the continued (real or percieved) lower quality of American-made vehicles might act as several intervening factors for the fall of Detroit; moreover, while all unions intervene on behalf of their employees, not all enforce wage ceilings. The Screen Actors Guild is a counterexample for both points - Hollywood continues to be world-leading, and top actors continued to be paid well, while even the actor you've heard the least of has a minimum wage, down to rules around how many times they can be called-back for an audition. The free market relies on free association, equal footing, and complete information for both parties. For most people, the business has a significant power advantage. Moreover, management is organizing together in order to depress wages through non-poach agreements - why shouldn't the workers work together as well?
  - CryptoPunk 8y ago
    Hollywood is a counterexample, I'll grant you that, but I'd argue it's only because the nature of film making - with many short-lived independent productions - doesn't give unionized work units the monopoly control they would have in large stable production facilities, like factories, and moreover, due to being cultural work, is very difficult to outsource. Numerous industries in both the private and public sector have declined since being unionized. Germany seems to have strong unions and a strong auto industry, but the German economy as a whole has suffered decades of wage stagnation. One outperforming industry alone doesn't negate the broader correlation between restrictive labor laws, and degraded economic performance. >>The free market relies on free association, equal footing, and complete information for both parties. A free market merely means anyone is free to offer their products/services, and everyone is free to take the best offer on the market. There are plenty of market failures and government-imposed market distortions, but the idea that locking the market down with one-size-fits-all labor relation rules is going to mitigate the harm of these distortions is unbelievable. It's just going to make industry less effective, and in the long run, less beneficial to its workers.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Look at the car towns in Germany and you will see the long term effects of unionization on industry. Companies do well and their employees too.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    American style unions are illegal in Germany.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      Which should be an argument for the reforming and redesigning of American labor unions, not a dismissal of the concept.
      - rayiner 8y ago
        Our society is too polarized and our history with unions too negative for reform to be possible. The Supreme Court, for example, was excoriated for the Janus decision--holding that compulsory membership in public sector unions violates the Constitution. But that's the German rule for all unions.
    - reissbaker 8y ago
      What specifically differentiates "American style unions" from German unions from a legal perspective?
      - rayiner 8y ago
        In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal.
        ardy42 8y ago
        > In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal. Any my understanding is that in Germany, unions have much more direct influence over company decision-making than American unions. IANAL, but I've heard German-style unions would be illegal in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Struct... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- c0nducktr 8y ago
  The history of Detroit is much more complex than you're making it out to be.
sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
I think the key problem with unionizing software development is the lack of objectively defined work units, and the resulting impossibility of measuring output. I think everyone who has worked in software for any length of time knows that some developers are vastly more productive than others, and that management can’t measure productivity. If somebody is having a hard time with a task (or is just being lazy) they will describe the task in a way that makes it sound hard. Somebody who is super-productive will describe their work as being easier and therefore get less credit for completing it. It’s very challenging for managers to sniff out who is really pulling the weight, and that will often unfortunately require a subjective evaluation of the behavior of their employees. The implied threat of termination at least helps keep people honest. Union protections, which add a layer of due process, would make this completely unworkable. If lazy Bob who wants to put in 20 years for his pension is always telling you that it will take three days to upgrade this dependency because there are so many breaking changes, that the branches have diverged so much that it will take a week to merge them, that tracking down all the event handlers on the old page will take the whole sprint, what can you possibly do to keep him in check? What if your good employees all leave and you are left with a team full of Bobs, how will you ever ship anything? I think this type of environment already exists in government software shops because they have union-like protections. I’m not advocating for unions in software to be banned or anything, I just wouldn’t choose to work at such a company and I’d expect them to be less successful on average.

Look at Detroit in the 1950s (highest median income in the US) and look at it today (a ghost town), to see the long term effects of unionization on industry. The reason the US software industry has been getting stronger and producing ever greater numbers of high paying jobs is that it enjoys the efficiencies of a free market in labor, aka it's not dominated by monopolizing unions.

freeone3000 8y ago
The impact of the gas crisis, a preference for foreign imports, and the continued (real or percieved) lower quality of American-made vehicles might act as several intervening factors for the fall of Detroit; moreover, while all unions intervene on behalf of their employees, not all enforce wage ceilings. The Screen Actors Guild is a counterexample for both points - Hollywood continues to be world-leading, and top actors continued to be paid well, while even the actor you've heard the least of has a minimum wage, down to rules around how many times they can be called-back for an audition. The free market relies on free association, equal footing, and complete information for both parties. For most people, the business has a significant power advantage. Moreover, management is organizing together in order to depress wages through non-poach agreements - why shouldn't the workers work together as well?
- CryptoPunk 8y ago
  Hollywood is a counterexample, I'll grant you that, but I'd argue it's only because the nature of film making - with many short-lived independent productions - doesn't give unionized work units the monopoly control they would have in large stable production facilities, like factories, and moreover, due to being cultural work, is very difficult to outsource. Numerous industries in both the private and public sector have declined since being unionized. Germany seems to have strong unions and a strong auto industry, but the German economy as a whole has suffered decades of wage stagnation. One outperforming industry alone doesn't negate the broader correlation between restrictive labor laws, and degraded economic performance. >>The free market relies on free association, equal footing, and complete information for both parties. A free market merely means anyone is free to offer their products/services, and everyone is free to take the best offer on the market. There are plenty of market failures and government-imposed market distortions, but the idea that locking the market down with one-size-fits-all labor relation rules is going to mitigate the harm of these distortions is unbelievable. It's just going to make industry less effective, and in the long run, less beneficial to its workers.
maxxxxx 8y ago
Look at the car towns in Germany and you will see the long term effects of unionization on industry. Companies do well and their employees too.
- rayiner 8y ago
  American style unions are illegal in Germany.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Which should be an argument for the reforming and redesigning of American labor unions, not a dismissal of the concept.
    - rayiner 8y ago
      Our society is too polarized and our history with unions too negative for reform to be possible. The Supreme Court, for example, was excoriated for the Janus decision--holding that compulsory membership in public sector unions violates the Constitution. But that's the German rule for all unions.
  - reissbaker 8y ago
    What specifically differentiates "American style unions" from German unions from a legal perspective?
    - rayiner 8y ago
      In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal.
      - ardy42 8y ago
        > In Germany, compulsory union membership and "union shops" are illegal. Any my understanding is that in Germany, unions have much more direct influence over company decision-making than American unions. IANAL, but I've heard German-style unions would be illegal in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Struct... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#Germany
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
c0nducktr 8y ago
The history of Detroit is much more complex than you're making it out to be.

sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago

I think the key problem with unionizing software development is the lack of objectively defined work units, and the resulting impossibility of measuring output. I think everyone who has worked in software for any length of time knows that some developers are vastly more productive than others, and that management can’t measure productivity. If somebody is having a hard time with a task (or is just being lazy) they will describe the task in a way that makes it sound hard. Somebody who is super-productive will describe their work as being easier and therefore get less credit for completing it. It’s very challenging for managers to sniff out who is really pulling the weight, and that will often unfortunately require a subjective evaluation of the behavior of their employees. The implied threat of termination at least helps keep people honest. Union protections, which add a layer of due process, would make this completely unworkable. If lazy Bob who wants to put in 20 years for his pension is always telling you that it will take three days to upgrade this dependency because there are so many breaking changes, that the branches have diverged so much that it will take a week to merge them, that tracking down all the event handlers on the old page will take the whole sprint, what can you possibly do to keep him in check? What if your good employees all leave and you are left with a team full of Bobs, how will you ever ship anything? I think this type of environment already exists in government software shops because they have union-like protections. I’m not advocating for unions in software to be banned or anything, I just wouldn’t choose to work at such a company and I’d expect them to be less successful on average.