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So from reading it appears that there are a lot of folks who want to work for a game company, but they are not considered precious, because there are so many of

So from reading it appears that there are a lot of folks who want to work for a game company, but they are not considered precious, because there are so many of them (this totally baffles me as what I saw in game dev was really hard). But on the other hand, if you standout somehow (experienced?) - you would not face such issue. So why employer would employ "commodity devs" who are part of the union, and why devs, who standout and have a leverage would option to join union?

jogjayr 8y ago
> why employer would employ "commodity devs" who are part of the union, and why devs, who standout and have a leverage would option to join union? The parent poster answered that question for Hollywood. Union members (and here I'm speaking of SAG-AFTRA, which represents actors) are not allowed to work on non-union productions. Union productions, which encompass almost all major studios, are required to give first preference to union members and only hire non-union members when they are of "essential skill and quality"[1][2]. A non-union member who works on a union production has 30 days to join the union. If they do not join, they can't work on any more union productions. Since all the big name stars are union members, big studios have to have union productions in order to be able to hire them. Stars make plenty of money regardless of whether they're in a union or not, because their agents negotiate well for them. But most stars were once unknown and so they had to join the union when starting out, in order to be able to book gigs and build their career. For a millionaire actor union dues aren't a big financial hardship, and union membership doesn't affect how much money they make now. And they need to maintain union membership in order to continue working on union productions with other big stars. A game industry union would probably work the same way. An employer would be forced to give first preference to a "commodity" union dev if they want to be able to employ the star producer or designer on their production. A non-union commodity dev has to take union membership after getting their first job offer else they can't work on another union project. It would also probably mean that game industry jobs become like entertainment industry jobs: you're hired for a specific project and you move on when it's finished - instead of being like the rest of the white-collar workforce's model, where you're hired at a single company and build a career there. 1. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/UnionsInHollywood https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/UnionsInH... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act#Closed_shops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act#Close...
- michaelt 8y ago
  The way you explain the Hollywood example, it sounds like the star actors are the linchpin of ensuring junior actors and commodity workers get union benefits - and yet, the star actors don't need the union's negotiating power, as their agents negotiate much better rates. That's all very well for Hollywood, but surely it's a difficult model to kickstart in other industries.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    Not necessarily. Every production will need mostly non-star workers. If they're all unionized, the stars have little choice but to sign up or work in the few productions that re non-union. Additionally, the Hollywood model is to sign up stars to unions before they're stars. This is further bolstered by the fact that every trade in Hollywood - directors, writers, producers, technicians and handymen - has its own union.
- hippich 8y ago
  I think what confuses me is the chicken and the egg problem - I wonder how did Unions in Holywood become so powerful, that they could command companies to hire only unionized employees.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    The SAG's own history page is pretty vague about why big stars signed on: "Protests against provisions in FDR’s National Recovery Administration's proposed Motion Picture Code of Fair Competition result in mass exodus of stars from Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in early October. Major stars like Robert Montgomery, Fredric March, James Cagney, Ann Harding, Eddie Cantor and Groucho Marx join SAG." [1] I think the amount of control studios exerted over even big names was a factor. Stars did well financially but were still treated as disposable and second-class. They were signed to multi-year, exclusive contracts that had onerous restrictions. 1. https://www.sagaftra.org/about/our-history/1930s https://www.sagaftra.org/about/our-history/1930s
tokyodude 8y ago
Gamedev is and is not hard. The availability of engines like Unreal and Unity and all the plugins and example game kits available mean that it's trivial to make a simple game. The proof, 20000-40000 new games ship every month on iOS+Android At the simplest level you basically download a kit for the genre you want, skin it, ship it. Of course a good game is often much more work and requires more talent but in some ways it's getting to be the same as video and music. It used to be to be anything at either required lots of expensive equipment and connections to the gatekeepers. Now a days anyone can make a video on their phone and post it to youtube or make some music in music app of their choice and post it to youtube etc. So, we see an explosion of content. Youtube has tons and tons of channels. Twitch a bunch more. The stuff people like raises to the top but there's zillions of people who get very few views because whatever they are making isn't quality or appealing. Games are getting to be the same. So many people making so many games. Also as the industry goes mostly toward a few engines it gets easier to shuffle people around. You and post a job listing for someone with Unreal or Unity experience. Before those 2 engines became so popular no one generally had experience with the engine another studio was using. Also to the business people it's not clear what's needed for a hit. In general the top movies are mostly big budget movies. The top 10 movies for 2018 are all effects based movies with staff of 1000s+. There's a few non big budget movies in the to 20. In games in the last few years there have been several hits that had low budgets including Candy Crush Saga, Clash Royale, Puzzle and Dragons, PUBG, Minecraft, and others, many of which made as much or more than their AAA expensive competition like GTA5 or Red Dead Redemption 2 and cost 1/10th to 1/20th those bigger games.
- philipov 8y ago
  It's just like any other art form in this regard. Anyone can splatter paint on canvas or fill a book with words. Making something worth looking at or reading is much harder. Being able to masterfully execute the motions of your craft is just the bare minimum requirement for entry.

jogjayr 8y ago

> why employer would employ "commodity devs" who are part of the union, and why devs, who standout and have a leverage would option to join union? The parent poster answered that question for Hollywood. Union members (and here I'm speaking of SAG-AFTRA, which represents actors) are not allowed to work on non-union productions. Union productions, which encompass almost all major studios, are required to give first preference to union members and only hire non-union members when they are of "essential skill and quality"[1][2]. A non-union member who works on a union production has 30 days to join the union. If they do not join, they can't work on any more union productions. Since all the big name stars are union members, big studios have to have union productions in order to be able to hire them. Stars make plenty of money regardless of whether they're in a union or not, because their agents negotiate well for them. But most stars were once unknown and so they had to join the union when starting out, in order to be able to book gigs and build their career. For a millionaire actor union dues aren't a big financial hardship, and union membership doesn't affect how much money they make now. And they need to maintain union membership in order to continue working on union productions with other big stars. A game industry union would probably work the same way. An employer would be forced to give first preference to a "commodity" union dev if they want to be able to employ the star producer or designer on their production. A non-union commodity dev has to take union membership after getting their first job offer else they can't work on another union project. It would also probably mean that game industry jobs become like entertainment industry jobs: you're hired for a specific project and you move on when it's finished - instead of being like the rest of the white-collar workforce's model, where you're hired at a single company and build a career there. 1. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/UnionsInHollywood https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/UnionsInH... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act#Closed_shops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act#Close...

michaelt 8y ago
The way you explain the Hollywood example, it sounds like the star actors are the linchpin of ensuring junior actors and commodity workers get union benefits - and yet, the star actors don't need the union's negotiating power, as their agents negotiate much better rates. That's all very well for Hollywood, but surely it's a difficult model to kickstart in other industries.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  Not necessarily. Every production will need mostly non-star workers. If they're all unionized, the stars have little choice but to sign up or work in the few productions that re non-union. Additionally, the Hollywood model is to sign up stars to unions before they're stars. This is further bolstered by the fact that every trade in Hollywood - directors, writers, producers, technicians and handymen - has its own union.
hippich 8y ago
I think what confuses me is the chicken and the egg problem - I wonder how did Unions in Holywood become so powerful, that they could command companies to hire only unionized employees.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  The SAG's own history page is pretty vague about why big stars signed on: "Protests against provisions in FDR’s National Recovery Administration's proposed Motion Picture Code of Fair Competition result in mass exodus of stars from Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in early October. Major stars like Robert Montgomery, Fredric March, James Cagney, Ann Harding, Eddie Cantor and Groucho Marx join SAG." [1] I think the amount of control studios exerted over even big names was a factor. Stars did well financially but were still treated as disposable and second-class. They were signed to multi-year, exclusive contracts that had onerous restrictions. 1. https://www.sagaftra.org/about/our-history/1930s https://www.sagaftra.org/about/our-history/1930s

tokyodude 8y ago

Gamedev is and is not hard. The availability of engines like Unreal and Unity and all the plugins and example game kits available mean that it's trivial to make a simple game. The proof, 20000-40000 new games ship every month on iOS+Android At the simplest level you basically download a kit for the genre you want, skin it, ship it. Of course a good game is often much more work and requires more talent but in some ways it's getting to be the same as video and music. It used to be to be anything at either required lots of expensive equipment and connections to the gatekeepers. Now a days anyone can make a video on their phone and post it to youtube or make some music in music app of their choice and post it to youtube etc. So, we see an explosion of content. Youtube has tons and tons of channels. Twitch a bunch more. The stuff people like raises to the top but there's zillions of people who get very few views because whatever they are making isn't quality or appealing. Games are getting to be the same. So many people making so many games. Also as the industry goes mostly toward a few engines it gets easier to shuffle people around. You and post a job listing for someone with Unreal or Unity experience. Before those 2 engines became so popular no one generally had experience with the engine another studio was using. Also to the business people it's not clear what's needed for a hit. In general the top movies are mostly big budget movies. The top 10 movies for 2018 are all effects based movies with staff of 1000s+. There's a few non big budget movies in the to 20. In games in the last few years there have been several hits that had low budgets including Candy Crush Saga, Clash Royale, Puzzle and Dragons, PUBG, Minecraft, and others, many of which made as much or more than their AAA expensive competition like GTA5 or Red Dead Redemption 2 and cost 1/10th to 1/20th those bigger games.

philipov 8y ago
It's just like any other art form in this regard. Anyone can splatter paint on canvas or fill a book with words. Making something worth looking at or reading is much harder. Being able to masterfully execute the motions of your craft is just the bare minimum requirement for entry.