4 ms·

Ketamine is plentiful on the street and you can legally buy ketamine analogs online. I don’t see this new route of getting it from a psychiatrist as a huge abus

Ketamine is plentiful on the street and you can legally buy ketamine analogs online. I don’t see this new route of getting it from a psychiatrist as a huge abuse risk. Subjectively, it’s not as good a “take the pill and forget your problems” drug as opioids, benzos, and alcohol are. It can be used in that way if you take a huge “k-hole” dose and dissociate completely, and some people do get addicted. But at common doses, certainly whatever they are going to prescribe, it’s more of a “think about your problems and figure out how to solve or accept them” drug like mushrooms and LSD.

martinald 8y ago
You could use the same argument for Oxycontin surely. Heroin was always out there on the street, but it's only when opioids were prescribed to the masses via doctors that it reached ecedemic proportions. I'm not saying it is addictive as heroin etc but it's definitely addictive. And will people start increasing their doses as they become tolerant to the antidepressant effects, etc?
- sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
  I think responding to this requires giving a summary of the effects of different drugs, to build a simple mental model of how they could cause addiction. Group A: Drugs like benzos, alcohol, and opioids provide pleasant sensations upfront, killing your pains and anxieties, but those problems return in even worse form when the drug wears off. It’s as though your brain’s baseline for what counts as suffering had been lowered by the experience of being coddled. It’s very clear how this leads to compulsive redosing and addiction. Group B: Psychedelic drugs like mushrooms and LSD induce unpleasant feelings as they take effect, followed by a more positive (perhaps euphoric) experience once the brain adjusts to the presence of the drug, and then less potent pleasant after-effects when the drug wears off. It seems like the brain has raised the bar for suffering - suddenly the fact that you can see things in the correct color, gravity is pointing in the right direction, and you have clarity of thought makes life feel easy. You might redose to extend the peak effects, but you aren’t going to take any more for a while once it wears off. It would be tough to get addicted to these. However, a depressed person might have trouble with the come-up, and could experience a panic attack. You’d want a very skilled therapist if you’re trying to treat depression this way. IMO ketamine kind of straddles the line here. The onset of the dissociation can be stressful, but it’s not that hard. You don’t forget your problems, but they feel like the problems of somebody that you know closely and care a lot about, so you can try to solve them from a different perspective. You can feel that you are doing something great, which can lead to compulsive redosing, but you keep the lessons you learn when it wears off. It’s not as though your problems come back in even worse form like you get with group A. Although if you really blast yourself, the dissociation can get so strong that you don’t care about your problems at all, which gives you more of a group A experience while you are peaking. I’m not a scientist and I may be wrong about this, but I think the antidepressant effects are not caused directly by the drug or metabolites that one could become tolerant of. I think that they are a result of the brain’s recent experience of looking at life from a non-depressed perspective.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
> Ketamine is plentiful on the street and you can legally buy ketamine analogs online. I don’t see this new route of getting it from a psychiatrist as a huge abuse risk. Exactly the same thing could be said about opiates. I'm all for new and novel methods for treating depression, but everyone seems to be jumping on this like it's a magical depression cure with no negative externalities.

martinald 8y ago

You could use the same argument for Oxycontin surely. Heroin was always out there on the street, but it's only when opioids were prescribed to the masses via doctors that it reached ecedemic proportions. I'm not saying it is addictive as heroin etc but it's definitely addictive. And will people start increasing their doses as they become tolerant to the antidepressant effects, etc?

sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
I think responding to this requires giving a summary of the effects of different drugs, to build a simple mental model of how they could cause addiction. Group A: Drugs like benzos, alcohol, and opioids provide pleasant sensations upfront, killing your pains and anxieties, but those problems return in even worse form when the drug wears off. It’s as though your brain’s baseline for what counts as suffering had been lowered by the experience of being coddled. It’s very clear how this leads to compulsive redosing and addiction. Group B: Psychedelic drugs like mushrooms and LSD induce unpleasant feelings as they take effect, followed by a more positive (perhaps euphoric) experience once the brain adjusts to the presence of the drug, and then less potent pleasant after-effects when the drug wears off. It seems like the brain has raised the bar for suffering - suddenly the fact that you can see things in the correct color, gravity is pointing in the right direction, and you have clarity of thought makes life feel easy. You might redose to extend the peak effects, but you aren’t going to take any more for a while once it wears off. It would be tough to get addicted to these. However, a depressed person might have trouble with the come-up, and could experience a panic attack. You’d want a very skilled therapist if you’re trying to treat depression this way. IMO ketamine kind of straddles the line here. The onset of the dissociation can be stressful, but it’s not that hard. You don’t forget your problems, but they feel like the problems of somebody that you know closely and care a lot about, so you can try to solve them from a different perspective. You can feel that you are doing something great, which can lead to compulsive redosing, but you keep the lessons you learn when it wears off. It’s not as though your problems come back in even worse form like you get with group A. Although if you really blast yourself, the dissociation can get so strong that you don’t care about your problems at all, which gives you more of a group A experience while you are peaking. I’m not a scientist and I may be wrong about this, but I think the antidepressant effects are not caused directly by the drug or metabolites that one could become tolerant of. I think that they are a result of the brain’s recent experience of looking at life from a non-depressed perspective.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

> Ketamine is plentiful on the street and you can legally buy ketamine analogs online. I don’t see this new route of getting it from a psychiatrist as a huge abuse risk. Exactly the same thing could be said about opiates. I'm all for new and novel methods for treating depression, but everyone seems to be jumping on this like it's a magical depression cure with no negative externalities.