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There's a great thread on Twitter that I can't find right now discussions some of the second order effects of layoffs like these: * Game dev with family has to

There's a great thread on Twitter that I can't find right now discussions some of the second order effects of layoffs like these: * Game dev with family has to choose to either uproot family and leave area to find new job, or chooses to leave game dev and go get a job writing CRUD apps somewhere. Net result is loss of expertise - who's training the junior devs? Remember, layoffs like these are common in the AAA game industry. I used to want to be a game developer, now I'm sad I didn't pursue it, but also thankful for the security of my "standard" software job.

jdoliner 8y ago
Maybe I'm just heartless but having to "go get a job writing CRUD apps somewhere" to make ends meet doesn't exactly trigger my sympathy response. If that's your backup option you're doing better than 99% of the population.
- tabs_masterrace 8y ago
  what if they force you to use Java
  - jdoliner 8y ago
    Then it's a humanitarian crisis.
  - cellularmitosis 8y ago
    "Yes sir boss, using java, just like you told us to" https://clojure.org/ https://clojure.org/
  - ionised 8y ago
    Or javascript.
- Klathmon 8y ago
  I believe they are not talking about the individual suffering there, but about the industry as a whole suffering because experienced talent is getting drained out.
- redisman 8y ago
  Games these days have a lot of CRUD too. I spent the last 3 years in the games industry writing REST APIs and client code that consume them. Clans, messaging, friends, matchmaking, content update infrastructure, leaderboards, saving progress, in-app purchases, live-tuning... It's all CRUD
- AlexB138 8y ago
  Why is this kind of accusatory moralizing so common on HN? It seems really needlessly confrontational.
- el_cujo 8y ago
  Maybe I'm just heartless, but "I have to either move cities or switch to another field that I'm also qualified for" does not really sound like too bad of a deal to me. I mean yeah, it's a pain not to be able to keep on doing what you've been doing, but neither of those options sounds life-shattering to me.
sgarman 8y ago
The article says "non-game-development areas like publishing." Maybe it's a lie, IDK but people seem to be talking about game devs in here and I'm not sure they were directly impacted.
maccio92 8y ago
there's more software jobs than just game dev or CRUD apps. sorry people, but it's called work for a reason. not every job is going to be a dream job. sometimes it's a job.
- rrix2 8y ago
  "Why bother striving for more joy in your life as long as there's folks doing worse?" is a strange philosophy to me.
mikeash 8y ago
I also wanted to be a game developer. I think almost every kid who grew up with a computer and got into programming it wanted to make games. But I am so, so, so glad I never went down that path. There’s plenty of interesting and rewarding work outside of games, and conditions are way better.
- eropple 8y ago
  That, and you can make really cool stuff on the side for fun. I've always had a little project on the back burner, bubbling away when I had time for it.
danShumway 8y ago
I majored in game development in college, which was both a ton of work and a ton of fun. Afterwards, I took all of those skills and went into a traditional software field. I think it was 100% the correct decision, and the default advice I give to people who are looking at the games industry now is, "don't." IMO most people who are good enough programmers to contract or work in entry level positions at game development are also good enough programmers that they could pivot to web development or more traditional software. It hurts me to see the crap some of my friends put up with to stay in the industry, from standardized "crunch nights" to crappy benefits that don't start until they graduate out of some kind of employment "trial period". And it's not even like I needed to give up my creative soul to work in software -- I still make games, I just don't make ports and contract projects. I work on my own stuff because my jobs allow me to have a work-life balance. Obviously, everyone's situation is different. If people know what they're getting into, fine. And maybe my personal experiences aren't representative of other locales and positions. But at least anecdotally, I wish more people in the games industry were taking their expertise over to companies that actually appreciated them.
- effakcuL 8y ago
  I think one of the best solutions to people like you, that studied gamedev and realized how horrible the field is, would be to go into robotics. I myself studied robotics and every time I read about game engines and similar stuff I am amazed about how similar those two fields are. Computer Vision and Computer Graphics are a lot of times quite similar, partly because they are the exact opposites of each other. The whole knowledge of quaternions and different Coordinate systems is essential for both fields. Path planning also does not change whether you do it for a 6-dof robot arm or for your troups running over the map (yes I know it kind of does due to different dimensions but the theory does not change).
  - Conjoiner 8y ago
    Same with the field of medical/military visualization
  - cf141q5325 8y ago
electricslpnsld 8y ago
> or chooses to leave game dev and go get a job writing CRUD apps somewhere There are tons of gigs I can see game dev credentials working well with beyond just CRUD (and there is nothing wrong with CRUD). AR/VR (Apple, Facebook, Google have been hiring like crazy here), autonomous vehicles, finance. I’m hopeful all the talented folks can land running out of these layoffs.
tablethnuser 8y ago
No one is training the junior devs, which is why GDC, Gamasutra, etc have been discussing the same topics on repeat for a decade or more. The games industry's hive amnesia makes it a great place for sadistic and plain bad managers to make a nice career. After ten years in that industry the only thing I would teach junior devs is to massively distrust any words from management. Learn how to say no to your employer and once they catch on that they can't manipulate you, get a job in another industry.
newsgremlin 8y ago
It's for this reason I've been considering making a game (2d) in my spare time, probably something done using the game maker studio or if I'm feeling a bit more adventurous, unity. Just to get the itch I have to make something in the form of entertainment that I've spent days of my life playing in total.

jdoliner 8y ago

Maybe I'm just heartless but having to "go get a job writing CRUD apps somewhere" to make ends meet doesn't exactly trigger my sympathy response. If that's your backup option you're doing better than 99% of the population.

tabs_masterrace 8y ago
what if they force you to use Java
- jdoliner 8y ago
  Then it's a humanitarian crisis.
- cellularmitosis 8y ago
  "Yes sir boss, using java, just like you told us to" https://clojure.org/ https://clojure.org/
- ionised 8y ago
  Or javascript.
Klathmon 8y ago
I believe they are not talking about the individual suffering there, but about the industry as a whole suffering because experienced talent is getting drained out.
redisman 8y ago
Games these days have a lot of CRUD too. I spent the last 3 years in the games industry writing REST APIs and client code that consume them. Clans, messaging, friends, matchmaking, content update infrastructure, leaderboards, saving progress, in-app purchases, live-tuning... It's all CRUD
AlexB138 8y ago
Why is this kind of accusatory moralizing so common on HN? It seems really needlessly confrontational.
el_cujo 8y ago
Maybe I'm just heartless, but "I have to either move cities or switch to another field that I'm also qualified for" does not really sound like too bad of a deal to me. I mean yeah, it's a pain not to be able to keep on doing what you've been doing, but neither of those options sounds life-shattering to me.

sgarman 8y ago

The article says "non-game-development areas like publishing." Maybe it's a lie, IDK but people seem to be talking about game devs in here and I'm not sure they were directly impacted.

maccio92 8y ago

there's more software jobs than just game dev or CRUD apps. sorry people, but it's called work for a reason. not every job is going to be a dream job. sometimes it's a job.

rrix2 8y ago
"Why bother striving for more joy in your life as long as there's folks doing worse?" is a strange philosophy to me.

mikeash 8y ago

I also wanted to be a game developer. I think almost every kid who grew up with a computer and got into programming it wanted to make games. But I am so, so, so glad I never went down that path. There’s plenty of interesting and rewarding work outside of games, and conditions are way better.

eropple 8y ago
That, and you can make really cool stuff on the side for fun. I've always had a little project on the back burner, bubbling away when I had time for it.

danShumway 8y ago

I majored in game development in college, which was both a ton of work and a ton of fun. Afterwards, I took all of those skills and went into a traditional software field. I think it was 100% the correct decision, and the default advice I give to people who are looking at the games industry now is, "don't." IMO most people who are good enough programmers to contract or work in entry level positions at game development are also good enough programmers that they could pivot to web development or more traditional software. It hurts me to see the crap some of my friends put up with to stay in the industry, from standardized "crunch nights" to crappy benefits that don't start until they graduate out of some kind of employment "trial period". And it's not even like I needed to give up my creative soul to work in software -- I still make games, I just don't make ports and contract projects. I work on my own stuff because my jobs allow me to have a work-life balance. Obviously, everyone's situation is different. If people know what they're getting into, fine. And maybe my personal experiences aren't representative of other locales and positions. But at least anecdotally, I wish more people in the games industry were taking their expertise over to companies that actually appreciated them.

effakcuL 8y ago
I think one of the best solutions to people like you, that studied gamedev and realized how horrible the field is, would be to go into robotics. I myself studied robotics and every time I read about game engines and similar stuff I am amazed about how similar those two fields are. Computer Vision and Computer Graphics are a lot of times quite similar, partly because they are the exact opposites of each other. The whole knowledge of quaternions and different Coordinate systems is essential for both fields. Path planning also does not change whether you do it for a 6-dof robot arm or for your troups running over the map (yes I know it kind of does due to different dimensions but the theory does not change).
- Conjoiner 8y ago
  Same with the field of medical/military visualization
- cf141q5325 8y ago

electricslpnsld 8y ago

> or chooses to leave game dev and go get a job writing CRUD apps somewhere There are tons of gigs I can see game dev credentials working well with beyond just CRUD (and there is nothing wrong with CRUD). AR/VR (Apple, Facebook, Google have been hiring like crazy here), autonomous vehicles, finance. I’m hopeful all the talented folks can land running out of these layoffs.

tablethnuser 8y ago

No one is training the junior devs, which is why GDC, Gamasutra, etc have been discussing the same topics on repeat for a decade or more. The games industry's hive amnesia makes it a great place for sadistic and plain bad managers to make a nice career. After ten years in that industry the only thing I would teach junior devs is to massively distrust any words from management. Learn how to say no to your employer and once they catch on that they can't manipulate you, get a job in another industry.

newsgremlin 8y ago

It's for this reason I've been considering making a game (2d) in my spare time, probably something done using the game maker studio or if I'm feeling a bit more adventurous, unity. Just to get the itch I have to make something in the form of entertainment that I've spent days of my life playing in total.