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> “The problem isn’t the use of a memory unsafe language, but that the programmers who wrote this code are bad.” This really goes to show how anti-worker the m

> “The problem isn’t the use of a memory unsafe language, but that the programmers who wrote this code are bad.” This really goes to show how anti-worker the media is even among high-skill jobs. In my mid 20s I now mentor a bit in coding. I’ve worked with young devs that inherently know many of the obvious security pitfalls that have caused massive security breaches a la Equifax. Are devs at the front of these breaches bad? I don’t believe so. Many went through grueling multi-part interviews to land the position. No, the issue a management one. Anti-worker is a meme in America and this is just another manifestation of the disingenuous “lack of tech talent” whining used to recruit more H1B. It’s also why unreleastic growth targets cause gaming tech workers to face layoffs despite record breaking sales.

adrianmonk 8y ago
Well, although it could be anti-worker, it could also be one-upmanship among programmers with fragile egos: I'm not a bad programmer; they are. And I think ego is a barrier to accepting tools that prevent errors. To accept the tool is to admit to yourself and others that you are going to make the error (sometimes) without it.
- dx87 8y ago
  I've seen the ego issue pop up a lot in some communities. The biggest example I can think of is the OpenBSD mailing list. Any time I'd see an outsider bring up Rust or other safer languages, the overwhelming sentiment is that languages with built-in safety features are for people too stupid to write C, and that safety features restrict good coders ability to write performant code.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    While that sentiment is certainly alive and well, that's not the actual reason why the OpenBSD crowd is not gung-ho about Rust: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151233345723889&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151233345723889&w=2 The takeaway of that thread is that OpenBSD's "shut up and code" mantra is applicable here. If you want a Rusty OpenBSD, then start replacing pieces of OpenBSD's C codebase with Rust (you might have to fork OpenBSD for awhile in the process). You'll probably run into quite a few issues. Most severely, OpenBSD must be self-hosting (i.e. able to compile itself) on every hardware platform on which it runs; if a modification causes that to be no longer true, then either that hardware target must be dropped or the modification must be rejected. Considering that Rust doesn't support compiling for all the hardware platforms OpenBSD supports (let alone compiling a rustc that actually does run natively on each platform), Rust is immediately a nonstarter.
geofft 8y ago
> This really goes to show how anti-worker the media is even among high-skill jobs. The quote was regarding "social media" as in mostly the workers themselves, not "the media" as in the independent journalists reporting on the workers. I think you're agreeing with the article in the end, and I also agree with it, but I'd like to note two things: - Grueling interviews are not necessarily correlated with skill. In particular, I've done a lot of whiteboard coding and a handful of take-home exercises, and not one has anyone cared either if I was writing buffer overflows or if I was reaching to a buffer-overflow-prone style. On the whiteboard, on either side of an interview, it's generally a loose pseudocode with the understanding that errors are not to be checked, that syntax doesn't need to be exact, and the point of the exercise is not whether you had an off-by-one in a calculation. So the skills of either being awesome enough to write bug-free code in security-sensitive environments or humble enough to use tools (languages, analyzers, sandboxes, whatever) to protect yourself from inevitable mistakes are not tested at all. - "Lack of tech talent" generally refers to the number of people being insufficient for the job, not the quality of the existing people. It is entirely possible to believe that the problems of insecure code are not a level-of-talent issue and that we still face a lack of tech talent. (I have certainly never heard it claimed that the problems we face with insecure code are that too many Americans are bad at coding and we need to hire smarter foreigners who don't write bugs.)
- fenwick67 8y ago
  > "Lack of tech talent" generally refers to the number of people being insufficient for the job, not the quality of the existing people The "we can't find enough people to do this job" complaint conveniently leaves out "...at the wage we offer". The principles of supply and demand apply here - if a company pays well enough they will get enough quality candidates for almost any job. It's insane to believe that a company literally cannot find a good C developer.

adrianmonk 8y ago

Well, although it could be anti-worker, it could also be one-upmanship among programmers with fragile egos: I'm not a bad programmer; they are. And I think ego is a barrier to accepting tools that prevent errors. To accept the tool is to admit to yourself and others that you are going to make the error (sometimes) without it.

dx87 8y ago
I've seen the ego issue pop up a lot in some communities. The biggest example I can think of is the OpenBSD mailing list. Any time I'd see an outsider bring up Rust or other safer languages, the overwhelming sentiment is that languages with built-in safety features are for people too stupid to write C, and that safety features restrict good coders ability to write performant code.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  While that sentiment is certainly alive and well, that's not the actual reason why the OpenBSD crowd is not gung-ho about Rust: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151233345723889&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151233345723889&w=2 The takeaway of that thread is that OpenBSD's "shut up and code" mantra is applicable here. If you want a Rusty OpenBSD, then start replacing pieces of OpenBSD's C codebase with Rust (you might have to fork OpenBSD for awhile in the process). You'll probably run into quite a few issues. Most severely, OpenBSD must be self-hosting (i.e. able to compile itself) on every hardware platform on which it runs; if a modification causes that to be no longer true, then either that hardware target must be dropped or the modification must be rejected. Considering that Rust doesn't support compiling for all the hardware platforms OpenBSD supports (let alone compiling a rustc that actually does run natively on each platform), Rust is immediately a nonstarter.

geofft 8y ago

> This really goes to show how anti-worker the media is even among high-skill jobs. The quote was regarding "social media" as in mostly the workers themselves, not "the media" as in the independent journalists reporting on the workers. I think you're agreeing with the article in the end, and I also agree with it, but I'd like to note two things: - Grueling interviews are not necessarily correlated with skill. In particular, I've done a lot of whiteboard coding and a handful of take-home exercises, and not one has anyone cared either if I was writing buffer overflows or if I was reaching to a buffer-overflow-prone style. On the whiteboard, on either side of an interview, it's generally a loose pseudocode with the understanding that errors are not to be checked, that syntax doesn't need to be exact, and the point of the exercise is not whether you had an off-by-one in a calculation. So the skills of either being awesome enough to write bug-free code in security-sensitive environments or humble enough to use tools (languages, analyzers, sandboxes, whatever) to protect yourself from inevitable mistakes are not tested at all. - "Lack of tech talent" generally refers to the number of people being insufficient for the job, not the quality of the existing people. It is entirely possible to believe that the problems of insecure code are not a level-of-talent issue and that we still face a lack of tech talent. (I have certainly never heard it claimed that the problems we face with insecure code are that too many Americans are bad at coding and we need to hire smarter foreigners who don't write bugs.)

fenwick67 8y ago
> "Lack of tech talent" generally refers to the number of people being insufficient for the job, not the quality of the existing people The "we can't find enough people to do this job" complaint conveniently leaves out "...at the wage we offer". The principles of supply and demand apply here - if a company pays well enough they will get enough quality candidates for almost any job. It's insane to believe that a company literally cannot find a good C developer.