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There are several quasi-related variations. Arguments against higher level languages and abstractions. Examples: If you have to use a garbage collected langu

There are several quasi-related variations. Arguments against higher level languages and abstractions. Examples: If you have to use a garbage collected language (eg, just about any modern language) it's because you're too stupid to know how to manage memory properly. [ various arguments against type safe languages, turning runtime errors into compile time errors ] Higher level languages and abstractions are just bloat. [or are too bloated, etc] Managed language runtime systems are too [ big | expensive | bloated | slow ] etc. (eg, the Java runtime, or .NET runtime, to a degree also Python, JavaScript, Lisp(s), etc) Counter arguments: Any sufficiently complex program will need the managed runtime, garbage collection, abstractions, type safety, etc. Greenspun's tenth rule: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule) Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. We could just write everything in assembly language, er, . . . um . . no, in hex code. And key it into the front of the machine on toggle switches with blinking lights. We could! Yes, really! So why aren't we? Why isn't, say, LibreOffice written in assembly language? I use high level languages, runtime systems, GC, etc because I'm not optimizing for cpu cycles and bytes. I'm optimizing for DOLLARS. A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, computer hardware was the most expensive resource. Today developer time is the most expensive resource. Everybody is happy to have their word processor upgrade a year sooner even if it means it uses a mere extra 500 MB of memory.

alexanderdmitri 8y ago
The devil is in the details usually here. Bloat can absolutely affect your bottomline in many ways.
- DannyB2 8y ago
  One man's 'bloat' is another man's features. Consider both Microsoft Word and Notepad. Which is more bloated? Which is more light weight? Which has more powerful features, some that you don't even notice right away, like spellcheck, grammar check, etc? Which has fewer features? People usually complaining about 'bloat' in a high level language or its runtime are really complaining about features that they either don't use, don't understand, or don't even realize are there.
  - alexanderdmitri 8y ago
    > Which is more bloated? Microsoft Word > Which is more light weight? Notepad > Which has more powerful features, some that you don't even notice right away, like spellcheck, grammar check, etc? Microsoft Word > Which has fewer features? Notepad Users who are complaining about bloat are usually complaining about either application performance, ease of use and basic task completion complexity and/or general cluttering of the UI. Longer than expected load times can lead users to believe an application is bloated as well. It's true that all these things might be caused by something other than bloat, but these are typical repercussions of adding general cruft and also these tend to be design decisions and implementation details separate from the feature that the bloat was added for. Developers complaining about bloat (not the ones on HN giving a critique of a github repo after browsing it for a couple minutes, but the ones who are actually knee deep in source code trying to meet a deadline for a specific feature or bug fix and to whom the bloat is literally a gravity well affecting their development pace and agility) are usually referring to previous development cycles that they believe unnecessarily introduced complex libraries for simple tasks or outsourced application logic to dependencies that are not under control of the in-house development that have unnecessarily made the code base unwieldy and created more rotten code overall from a maintainability/extensibility vantage. In both these cases, a good early signal of detrimental bloat would be someone taking out a PR that introduces 500MB to the application. Justifying it as I'm maximizing for DOLLARS makes me think of someone who just won the lottery deciding that as a result of their net worth increasing a thousand fold, they're going to start willingly paying 1000x the price for things and also buy 1000x the amount of things. Should anyone try to convince them of how this logic is going to work out (perhaps someone stuck behind them in line at the store as they ring out the tens of thousands of grocery items, each of which provides a special value most people don't use, understand, or even realize is edible), the lottery winner calmly explains to the well-meaning individual (who happens to have just as high a net worth as the lottery winner it turns out but has achieved this over time and will have a higher net worth going forward from here) that perhaps this well-meaning simpleton just don't realize how much money has just been won. And sure, an application like Microsoft Word that has been actively developed for more than 35 years will likely have bloat, especially when maintained to preserve backward compatibility. There's a statistical minimum in this regard. Whether or not the bloat is as bad as it needs to be is another thing. If the development team behind Word has simply been adding 500MB here and 500MB there and defending it with "we're not going to write the new features in assembly" or "this helps me as a programmer be more productive" or "this source modification is so large because of all the features you don't know about" or "what?! we're not in North Korea" or all of the above, they are 100% creating more work for themselves and this extra work definitely comes with a price tag. In fact, without really have much insight into the general culture or incentives over there, it's a reasonable bet they've taken steps to prevent developers from introducing tech debt and bloat with this sort of defense. Either way, it's weird to point to Microsoft Word's accumulated debt and overall decreasing performance specs as a result of multiple decades of evolving development as a reason to dismiss bloat as a non-issue. If I were a career non-bloat advocate, traveling from university to university on my canola oil powered moped I'd be pointing to Word as a reason to take bloat seriously and a reminder that the feature your adding now will likely be on the opposing force of a future person's battle with bloat and you should fight it with all the flower power you can muster or risk them tracking you down with a vendetta after they realize it was your commit making their job shit right now.
Gibbon1 8y ago
> I'm optimizing for DOLLARS. From the outside looking in, I mostly do firmware and test stuff. I see two things that seem to be mistakes developers are constantly making. Lack of consideration for the how much cash flow each transaction represents. Selling clicks for ad revenue is orders of magnitude less than selling machine tools. And the number of transactions are if anything even more unbalanced. Low transactions high revenue per transaction usually means scale is unimportant and you shouldn't be paying for it. And a quote from Robert C. Townsend's Up the Organization. Big companies didn't become big by acting like big companies. Trying to emulate GM is a path to failure. When the book was written people thought of GM the same way people think of google and facebook. The subsequent history is potentially a warning as well. Personally I think 'scale' is important in early stages if and only if you're building a 'bomb' a company that's designed from the start to grow orders of magnitude in five years. So really people should ask where are we really honestly going to be in five years and target that.

alexanderdmitri 8y ago

The devil is in the details usually here. Bloat can absolutely affect your bottomline in many ways.

DannyB2 8y ago
One man's 'bloat' is another man's features. Consider both Microsoft Word and Notepad. Which is more bloated? Which is more light weight? Which has more powerful features, some that you don't even notice right away, like spellcheck, grammar check, etc? Which has fewer features? People usually complaining about 'bloat' in a high level language or its runtime are really complaining about features that they either don't use, don't understand, or don't even realize are there.
- alexanderdmitri 8y ago
  > Which is more bloated? Microsoft Word > Which is more light weight? Notepad > Which has more powerful features, some that you don't even notice right away, like spellcheck, grammar check, etc? Microsoft Word > Which has fewer features? Notepad Users who are complaining about bloat are usually complaining about either application performance, ease of use and basic task completion complexity and/or general cluttering of the UI. Longer than expected load times can lead users to believe an application is bloated as well. It's true that all these things might be caused by something other than bloat, but these are typical repercussions of adding general cruft and also these tend to be design decisions and implementation details separate from the feature that the bloat was added for. Developers complaining about bloat (not the ones on HN giving a critique of a github repo after browsing it for a couple minutes, but the ones who are actually knee deep in source code trying to meet a deadline for a specific feature or bug fix and to whom the bloat is literally a gravity well affecting their development pace and agility) are usually referring to previous development cycles that they believe unnecessarily introduced complex libraries for simple tasks or outsourced application logic to dependencies that are not under control of the in-house development that have unnecessarily made the code base unwieldy and created more rotten code overall from a maintainability/extensibility vantage. In both these cases, a good early signal of detrimental bloat would be someone taking out a PR that introduces 500MB to the application. Justifying it as I'm maximizing for DOLLARS makes me think of someone who just won the lottery deciding that as a result of their net worth increasing a thousand fold, they're going to start willingly paying 1000x the price for things and also buy 1000x the amount of things. Should anyone try to convince them of how this logic is going to work out (perhaps someone stuck behind them in line at the store as they ring out the tens of thousands of grocery items, each of which provides a special value most people don't use, understand, or even realize is edible), the lottery winner calmly explains to the well-meaning individual (who happens to have just as high a net worth as the lottery winner it turns out but has achieved this over time and will have a higher net worth going forward from here) that perhaps this well-meaning simpleton just don't realize how much money has just been won. And sure, an application like Microsoft Word that has been actively developed for more than 35 years will likely have bloat, especially when maintained to preserve backward compatibility. There's a statistical minimum in this regard. Whether or not the bloat is as bad as it needs to be is another thing. If the development team behind Word has simply been adding 500MB here and 500MB there and defending it with "we're not going to write the new features in assembly" or "this helps me as a programmer be more productive" or "this source modification is so large because of all the features you don't know about" or "what?! we're not in North Korea" or all of the above, they are 100% creating more work for themselves and this extra work definitely comes with a price tag. In fact, without really have much insight into the general culture or incentives over there, it's a reasonable bet they've taken steps to prevent developers from introducing tech debt and bloat with this sort of defense. Either way, it's weird to point to Microsoft Word's accumulated debt and overall decreasing performance specs as a result of multiple decades of evolving development as a reason to dismiss bloat as a non-issue. If I were a career non-bloat advocate, traveling from university to university on my canola oil powered moped I'd be pointing to Word as a reason to take bloat seriously and a reminder that the feature your adding now will likely be on the opposing force of a future person's battle with bloat and you should fight it with all the flower power you can muster or risk them tracking you down with a vendetta after they realize it was your commit making their job shit right now.

Gibbon1 8y ago

> I'm optimizing for DOLLARS. From the outside looking in, I mostly do firmware and test stuff. I see two things that seem to be mistakes developers are constantly making. Lack of consideration for the how much cash flow each transaction represents. Selling clicks for ad revenue is orders of magnitude less than selling machine tools. And the number of transactions are if anything even more unbalanced. Low transactions high revenue per transaction usually means scale is unimportant and you shouldn't be paying for it. And a quote from Robert C. Townsend's Up the Organization. Big companies didn't become big by acting like big companies. Trying to emulate GM is a path to failure. When the book was written people thought of GM the same way people think of google and facebook. The subsequent history is potentially a warning as well. Personally I think 'scale' is important in early stages if and only if you're building a 'bomb' a company that's designed from the start to grow orders of magnitude in five years. So really people should ask where are we really honestly going to be in five years and target that.