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I find this kind of comment a bit off-putting. Women deserve a focus. Other people also deserve a focus. They should also get it. But for now, this article i

I find this kind of comment a bit off-putting. Women deserve a focus. Other people also deserve a focus. They should also get it. But for now, this article is about giving women a focus. Talking about giving other people a focus seems to be an attempt to get the focus away from women or denying that they deserve it. It seems a bit like derailing. Given HN's overwhelming male demographics because computers and software are overwhelmingly male, it's a bit harmful to be talking about other people whenever women are mentioned. For now, just read about women. That's a big chunk of the population. Later, read about other non-women people who also were left out. But give women a chance.

johnisgood 8y ago
Why would it be off-putting? I find it off-putting that people focus on a specific group of people because of their sex or some other irrelevant attribute. Focus on people in general, not people who belong to the group G. Focusing on people in general is not an attempt to get the focus away from women, since women are humans, too. Focusing on women alone reeks of discrimination to me. You cannot "fight" discrimination by more discrimination.
- jordigh 8y ago
  It's the same as when "Black Lives Matter" is shouted back at with "All Lives Matter". It doesn't actually help nor highlight the individual and unique plight of a particular group. It's just a shouting attempt to silence the problems of a particular group. "All Lives Matter" is a truism. Of course they do. It doesn't even need mentioning, so why did you mention it? "Black Lives Matter" highlights an actual problem that needs to be addressed, so why are you shouting "All Lives Matter" back at it when you weren't saying anything before? "All Lives Matter" is just a bland retort to try to get the spotlight away from "Black Lives Matter". In the case of women, their sex is not irrelevant, because the demographics of people in science overwhelmingly show a skew in sex and gender. Highlighting how women were relegated to footnotes much more than men were is an interesting bit of information that shouldn't be shut down with "what about the men?"
  - johnisgood 8y ago
    People tend to get upset when they are excluded from a group. Do you think that the right way of going against it is by further exclusion? I do not think that this is the case. > "Black Lives Matter" highlights an actual problem that needsd to be addressed So what is that problem? Does it have to do with exclusion? If so, why do not you promote "All Lives Matter", to make sure no one is excluded, then? > "All Lives Matter" is just a bland retort to try to get the spotlight away from "Black Lives Matter" And I could say that "Black Lives Matter" is just a bland way of trying to get the spotlight away from the fact that everyone deserves equal treatment, and that we should not discriminate people, or exclude them for their skin color, which is what it is actually doing. It is doing exactly the same thing it is fighting against. Fighting fire with fire is not a good way of doing it. You do not even have to create such groups or whatever to address these issues. In fact, I cannot think of a reason of why shouting "Black Lives Matter" is a solution at all. > In the case of women, their sex is not irrelevant, because the demographics of people in science overwhelmingly show a skew in sex and gender. There are men who have been underrepresented, and there are women who have been underrepresented. Why focus on women only? What is the point here exactly? > Highlighting how women were relegated to footnotes much more than men were is an interesting bit of information So were men. How is it interesting? Back to the matter at hand, what could be the reason that some men and women get shoved into the footnotes only? Does it have to do with the merit of quality of their contributions? Why do we assume that it has to do with their sex to begin with? Maybe it has to do with the contributions themselves, or something completely different.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > So what is that problem? The problem is that Black Lives manifestly do not matter as much as others, and particularly white lives, in the accountability structure that actually functionally exists. > If so, why do not you promote "All Lives Matter" Because a bug report needs to point as specifically as possible to the way the actual behavior is defective. > I could say that "Black Lives Matter" is just a bland way of trying to get the spotlight away from the fact that everyone deserves equal treatment, You could say anything, but as a matter of fact you would be wrong to say that.
ljj1122 8y ago
It's a bit like asking why there isn't a Straight Pride Month, really. Men in science haven't really been categorically underrepresented/excluded from science the way women ever have.
- johnisgood 8y ago
  Representation is irrelevant, it has 0 value, and it is a silly game anyway, because you can just pick another arbitrary category. For example: blonde people are underrepresented, and so on. Is it interesting? No. Is it relevant? Not really.
  - minikites 8y ago
    Are blonde people systemically discriminated against through laws and broad cultural values?
    - johnisgood 8y ago
      Women and blacks are not "systemically discriminated against through laws" in most countries. I will emphasize that US and UK are not the countries in which they are. And as to broad cultural values: I should have brought up gingers then, because I am sure you can agree to it that they are. Plus, you really cannot claim anything about the relevant people's cultural values and if they really have been a major influence on the decision of putting people in the footnotes, and that it was due to this people's biological sex. Why do you so want it to be the case? Why cannot it be something else, like something related to the contribution itself? That would definitely make more sense and would be more likely than some random, arbitrary attribute.
      - minikites 8y ago
        >Women and blacks are not "systemically discriminated against through laws" in most countries. I will emphasize that US and UK are not the countries in which they are. This is patently and obviously false: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#Banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#Banks >A 2017 study by Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago economists found that the practice of redlining—the practice whereby banks discriminated against the inhabitants of certain neighborhoods—had a persistent adverse impact on the neighborhoods, with redlining affecting homeownership rates, home values and credit scores in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering >Low income black communities that have been segregated by social forces through city design have higher levels of criminal activity rates. https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-ra... >According to U.S. Sentencing Commission figures, no class of drug is as racially skewed as crack in terms of numbers of offenses. According to the commission, 79 percent of 5,669 sentenced crack offenders in 2009 were black, versus 10 percent who were white and 10 percent who were Hispanic. The figures for the 6,020 powder cocaine cases are far less skewed: 17 percent of these offenders were white, 28 percent were black, and 53 percent were Hispanic. Combined with a 115-month average imprisonment for crack offenses versus an average of 87 months for cocaine offenses, this makes for more African-Americans spending more time in the prison system. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/t... >Blacks were more than twice as likely as whites to be searched after traffic stops, even though they proved to be 26 percent less likely to be in possession of illegal drugs or weapons. https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 >The results show significant discrimination against African-American names: White names receive 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. We also find that race affects the benefits of a better resume. For White names, a higher quality resume elicits 30 percent more callbacks whereas for African Americans, it elicits a far smaller increase.
DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
> Other people also deserve a focus. They should also get it. I think I understand where you're coming from, and I sympathize. I recognize the tension between competing ideals here. Unfortunately I don't know of a solid, reasoned answer for why we should prefer one or the other. I'm left with just a sense of humility (regarding my command of metaphysics, logic, and empathy) and personal tastes. My personal taste is that, at the moment, I'm feeling annoyed with so much focus on "girl power" at the expense of other social injustices. Which is why I was interested in knowing what other aggrieved groups were being neglected in the same way that women were in the scientific literature. But honestly, I can't give a solid reason for why someone should prefer my take on it to an unwavering pro-women approach.
AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
Our society is like that cartoon monkey who tries to pick a bunch of coconuts: she holds three in her arms, she tries to pick another one, but two fall out. She tries to pick the fallen ones, but drops the rest... We proclaim "more focus to women" and we immediately forget "more focus to black people" we put on our banners ten years ago. We then jump to "more focus to lgbtqrst" and completely forget about women. Should we indeed focus on personalities and abilities, not on whether a person has a vagina or a certain skin color?
- longerthoughts 8y ago
  >Should we indeed focus on personalities and abilities, not on whether a person has a vagina or a certain skin color? Yes, we should recognize abilities and contributions irrespective of sex or race. The problem is that this historically has not been the case and to argue otherwise is to imply that people of a certain sex or race are inherently less capable. The problem hasn't been naturally corrected without deliberate intervention so far, so it seems reasonable to think a deliberate, targeted approach is required to make sure we're getting better at recognizing and cultivating talent from the entire population.

johnisgood 8y ago

Why would it be off-putting? I find it off-putting that people focus on a specific group of people because of their sex or some other irrelevant attribute. Focus on people in general, not people who belong to the group G. Focusing on people in general is not an attempt to get the focus away from women, since women are humans, too. Focusing on women alone reeks of discrimination to me. You cannot "fight" discrimination by more discrimination.

jordigh 8y ago
It's the same as when "Black Lives Matter" is shouted back at with "All Lives Matter". It doesn't actually help nor highlight the individual and unique plight of a particular group. It's just a shouting attempt to silence the problems of a particular group. "All Lives Matter" is a truism. Of course they do. It doesn't even need mentioning, so why did you mention it? "Black Lives Matter" highlights an actual problem that needs to be addressed, so why are you shouting "All Lives Matter" back at it when you weren't saying anything before? "All Lives Matter" is just a bland retort to try to get the spotlight away from "Black Lives Matter". In the case of women, their sex is not irrelevant, because the demographics of people in science overwhelmingly show a skew in sex and gender. Highlighting how women were relegated to footnotes much more than men were is an interesting bit of information that shouldn't be shut down with "what about the men?"
- johnisgood 8y ago
  People tend to get upset when they are excluded from a group. Do you think that the right way of going against it is by further exclusion? I do not think that this is the case. > "Black Lives Matter" highlights an actual problem that needsd to be addressed So what is that problem? Does it have to do with exclusion? If so, why do not you promote "All Lives Matter", to make sure no one is excluded, then? > "All Lives Matter" is just a bland retort to try to get the spotlight away from "Black Lives Matter" And I could say that "Black Lives Matter" is just a bland way of trying to get the spotlight away from the fact that everyone deserves equal treatment, and that we should not discriminate people, or exclude them for their skin color, which is what it is actually doing. It is doing exactly the same thing it is fighting against. Fighting fire with fire is not a good way of doing it. You do not even have to create such groups or whatever to address these issues. In fact, I cannot think of a reason of why shouting "Black Lives Matter" is a solution at all. > In the case of women, their sex is not irrelevant, because the demographics of people in science overwhelmingly show a skew in sex and gender. There are men who have been underrepresented, and there are women who have been underrepresented. Why focus on women only? What is the point here exactly? > Highlighting how women were relegated to footnotes much more than men were is an interesting bit of information So were men. How is it interesting? Back to the matter at hand, what could be the reason that some men and women get shoved into the footnotes only? Does it have to do with the merit of quality of their contributions? Why do we assume that it has to do with their sex to begin with? Maybe it has to do with the contributions themselves, or something completely different.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > So what is that problem? The problem is that Black Lives manifestly do not matter as much as others, and particularly white lives, in the accountability structure that actually functionally exists. > If so, why do not you promote "All Lives Matter" Because a bug report needs to point as specifically as possible to the way the actual behavior is defective. > I could say that "Black Lives Matter" is just a bland way of trying to get the spotlight away from the fact that everyone deserves equal treatment, You could say anything, but as a matter of fact you would be wrong to say that.

ljj1122 8y ago

It's a bit like asking why there isn't a Straight Pride Month, really. Men in science haven't really been categorically underrepresented/excluded from science the way women ever have.

johnisgood 8y ago
Representation is irrelevant, it has 0 value, and it is a silly game anyway, because you can just pick another arbitrary category. For example: blonde people are underrepresented, and so on. Is it interesting? No. Is it relevant? Not really.
- minikites 8y ago
  Are blonde people systemically discriminated against through laws and broad cultural values?
  - johnisgood 8y ago
    Women and blacks are not "systemically discriminated against through laws" in most countries. I will emphasize that US and UK are not the countries in which they are. And as to broad cultural values: I should have brought up gingers then, because I am sure you can agree to it that they are. Plus, you really cannot claim anything about the relevant people's cultural values and if they really have been a major influence on the decision of putting people in the footnotes, and that it was due to this people's biological sex. Why do you so want it to be the case? Why cannot it be something else, like something related to the contribution itself? That would definitely make more sense and would be more likely than some random, arbitrary attribute.
    - minikites 8y ago
      >Women and blacks are not "systemically discriminated against through laws" in most countries. I will emphasize that US and UK are not the countries in which they are. This is patently and obviously false: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#Banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#Banks >A 2017 study by Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago economists found that the practice of redlining—the practice whereby banks discriminated against the inhabitants of certain neighborhoods—had a persistent adverse impact on the neighborhoods, with redlining affecting homeownership rates, home values and credit scores in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering >Low income black communities that have been segregated by social forces through city design have higher levels of criminal activity rates. https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-ra... >According to U.S. Sentencing Commission figures, no class of drug is as racially skewed as crack in terms of numbers of offenses. According to the commission, 79 percent of 5,669 sentenced crack offenders in 2009 were black, versus 10 percent who were white and 10 percent who were Hispanic. The figures for the 6,020 powder cocaine cases are far less skewed: 17 percent of these offenders were white, 28 percent were black, and 53 percent were Hispanic. Combined with a 115-month average imprisonment for crack offenses versus an average of 87 months for cocaine offenses, this makes for more African-Americans spending more time in the prison system. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/t... >Blacks were more than twice as likely as whites to be searched after traffic stops, even though they proved to be 26 percent less likely to be in possession of illegal drugs or weapons. https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 >The results show significant discrimination against African-American names: White names receive 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. We also find that race affects the benefits of a better resume. For White names, a higher quality resume elicits 30 percent more callbacks whereas for African Americans, it elicits a far smaller increase.

DoofusOfDeath 8y ago

> Other people also deserve a focus. They should also get it. I think I understand where you're coming from, and I sympathize. I recognize the tension between competing ideals here. Unfortunately I don't know of a solid, reasoned answer for why we should prefer one or the other. I'm left with just a sense of humility (regarding my command of metaphysics, logic, and empathy) and personal tastes. My personal taste is that, at the moment, I'm feeling annoyed with so much focus on "girl power" at the expense of other social injustices. Which is why I was interested in knowing what other aggrieved groups were being neglected in the same way that women were in the scientific literature. But honestly, I can't give a solid reason for why someone should prefer my take on it to an unwavering pro-women approach.

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago

Our society is like that cartoon monkey who tries to pick a bunch of coconuts: she holds three in her arms, she tries to pick another one, but two fall out. She tries to pick the fallen ones, but drops the rest... We proclaim "more focus to women" and we immediately forget "more focus to black people" we put on our banners ten years ago. We then jump to "more focus to lgbtqrst" and completely forget about women. Should we indeed focus on personalities and abilities, not on whether a person has a vagina or a certain skin color?

longerthoughts 8y ago
>Should we indeed focus on personalities and abilities, not on whether a person has a vagina or a certain skin color? Yes, we should recognize abilities and contributions irrespective of sex or race. The problem is that this historically has not been the case and to argue otherwise is to imply that people of a certain sex or race are inherently less capable. The problem hasn't been naturally corrected without deliberate intervention so far, so it seems reasonable to think a deliberate, targeted approach is required to make sure we're getting better at recognizing and cultivating talent from the entire population.