4 ms·

It is an editor that is hard to learn and master. There are other options you could have some / most of the mentioned benefits with much lower investment. Not e

by mda 8y ago

It is an editor that is hard to learn and master. There are other options you could have some / most of the mentioned benefits with much lower investment. Not everyone has the energy / willpower / time to learn vim.

jcranberry 8y ago
Vim isn't that hard to learn. I think the idea that someone doesn't have the willpower to learn vim is unlikely to the point of being ludicrous. It took me about two weeks of using vim with a printout until I could use it without thinking or having to reference it.
- phailhaus 8y ago
  Have you ever tried to set up a colorscheme for vim? Add plugins, set keybindings? Imagine a non-engineer trying to do any of these things. Even as an engineer it's taken me years of iteration to get vim to a place where I'm as fast as I am, and I still get frustrated setting up a new computer (and I've gone through the trouble of hosting my dotfiles on GitHub!)
  - creyes 8y ago
    I think that it's probably better to start with a solid vimrc and then make changes from there. Ours is pretty standard and included with our standard dotfiles https://github.com/thoughtbot/dotfiles/blob/master/vimrc https://github.com/thoughtbot/dotfiles/blob/master/vimrc A HUGE problem with developers learning VIM is that they think they have to go from 0 - 100 immediately when you can adopt VIM gradually and still see noticeable efficiency increases.
    - phailhaus 8y ago
      > A HUGE problem with developers learning VIM is that they think they have to go from 0 - 100 immediately when you can adopt VIM gradually and still see noticeable efficiency increases. That iterative process is exactly what I'm talking about. It's taken years to develop my vimrc, because starting with a "prebuilt vimrc" means that you don't really understand what is pure vim, what's custom, and what issues you might run into because of those custom settings conflicting with new plugins.
  - alpaca128 8y ago
    It can be tricky, but doesn't depend on the user being an engineer. It mainly requires the right mindset. Some people find even an iPhone too complicated, others don't mind reading the manual for a minute. For some users Vim just makes sense, while certain people will struggle with saving files in Notepad because they think a specific button is at the wrong place and refuse to learn it any other way than they imagined. > I still get frustrated setting up a new computer Why is that? Setting up Vim is the easiest task for me, it's literally just a matter of copying some files.
    - phailhaus 8y ago
      > It can be tricky, but doesn't depend on the user being an engineer. It mainly requires the right mindset. A mindset that is suspiciously similar to an engineer's. :P For example, you need the user to memorize the fact that all the configs are in a ".vimrc" file in their home directory. Oh and since it's a dotfile they might not see it immediately. And then if they want to add custom shortcuts they need to learn exactly how the syntax works, the different "modes", the types of remaps, etc. It's a horrible experience for a non-engineer. > Why is that? Setting up Vim is the easiest task for me, it's literally just a matter of copying some files. I have a lot of plugins (e.g. syntax highlighting, linting, and autocomplete for different languages), and each of those can have their own dependencies that they require you to install before they'll work.
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        It's absolutely a matter of mindset. I tend to use the example of a car in these topics, but I have a better one: a coffee maker. There are numerous non-obvious things one has to learn about coffee makers - like how to apply a water filter, and what kind to buy. Like the symbols that mean "not enough water", "not enough coffee", "dredge drawer full", and what to do when they show up. Somehow, I never see anyone complaining about this - because there's a social expectation that people can and should figure this out. The coffee machine comes with a small booklet explaining all of this in pictures and a dozen languages. Yet somehow, with software people think that the UI should just have a button labeled "get my job done", pressing which will get their job done. It's a really broken mindset, because it's impossible (or rather, it's an AI-complete problem) to have software like that.
  - _of 8y ago
    not hard. most of those things can be googled in seconds and copy pasted into .vimrc I would say vim is easier to configure than, for example emacs
    - phailhaus 8y ago
      Non-engineer: "What is .vimrc?" And no, for example solarized takes quite a bit of googling to learn exactly which files to copy from GitHub (red flag: non-engineer has to go to GitHub and download a raw file), and then fiddle with the color settings depending on which terminal you're using.
      - mcguire 8y ago
        Ever tried changing the color theme in Eclipse?
  - jcranberry 8y ago
    The first time, each of those things probably took me like ten seconds. Cloned into folders specified in readmes. Keybindings are even simpler. Obviously there can be snags on the road and things get more difficult the more complicated things you want to do, but learning the basic keybindings and being able to efficiently edit files with vim just isn't that hard.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Why should a non-engineer use Vim? If you're writing prose not code, then using vim is like using a Hilti rotary hammer to hang picture frames.
    - phailhaus 8y ago
      Yep! They shouldn't! That's what I'm arguing :)
- Phenix88be 8y ago
  Vim is not hard to learn, a few hours give you the basic. Vim is hard to master. 3 years ago I started to use Spacemacs with evil (so vim) and I keep learning new vim tricks. It's a lot of fun and I really can't go back.
  - shriek 8y ago
    Isn't that the whole beauty of it? You're learning what you've already learned on top without having to re-learn everything again. That's primarily why I've stuck with it. That and the fact that it's easily programmable even though VimL leaves you wanting more.
- nickjj 8y ago
  It's funny you mention printouts. They've been critical for my learning process too. I have a standing desk and as of right now I have 6x sticky notes worth of shortcuts hanging down below my monitor.
  - weaksauce 8y ago
    I say that vim is easy to learn if you approach it from the idea that it’s a vocabulary to edit text and not a bunch of arcane invocations. Instead of learning di” as a invocation to delete text inside the current or next pair of double quotes on the line you learn it as a verb and target... d deletes i sets the scope inside something and “ is the target. Then the next time you want to delete inside something all you need to do is change the target up to say single quote or paragraph. or you substitute the inner with a mark or a line number or a regex.
    - nickjj 8y ago
      Yeah once I got to thinking about it being almost like a piano, where you're playing notes or melodies to do something it suddenly all started to click. But still, I have a lot jotted down. Mainly the hotkeys, but also things just to remind myself that a feature exists (like * to highlight the current word).
- james_s_tayler 8y ago
  I don't have the willpower to learn vim. Everytime I even look at it I think... no. And reach for nano instead and just be inefficient and happy. We're out there.
creyes 8y ago
Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with this. That's like saying that people use a screw driver to screw in a nail because it's a much lower investment and not everyone has the energy to use a drill. The premise of the article is that the VIM is better enough than alternatives that it's worth the learning curve. Just like a drill is better enough than a screwdriver to learn ho to use it. If you want to contest that, that's a different discussion. If your argument is, "some people don't have the energy to use the best tool for the job"... idk how to respond to that.
- falcrist 8y ago
  Doesn't the screw driver/drill analogy work here too? Drills cost a lot more money than screw drivers or hammers, require that you be working with screws rather than nails, and don't work unless you have electricity. Hence, they're not a worthwhile investment for everyone. If you go far enough, you can cause the analogy to break down, but that's true of any analogy. This breaks down because the ROI for a drill is too short to compare with Vim.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    So, notepad, then? :-)

by mda 8y ago

jcranberry 8y ago

Vim isn't that hard to learn. I think the idea that someone doesn't have the willpower to learn vim is unlikely to the point of being ludicrous. It took me about two weeks of using vim with a printout until I could use it without thinking or having to reference it.

phailhaus 8y ago
Have you ever tried to set up a colorscheme for vim? Add plugins, set keybindings? Imagine a non-engineer trying to do any of these things. Even as an engineer it's taken me years of iteration to get vim to a place where I'm as fast as I am, and I still get frustrated setting up a new computer (and I've gone through the trouble of hosting my dotfiles on GitHub!)
- creyes 8y ago
  I think that it's probably better to start with a solid vimrc and then make changes from there. Ours is pretty standard and included with our standard dotfiles https://github.com/thoughtbot/dotfiles/blob/master/vimrc https://github.com/thoughtbot/dotfiles/blob/master/vimrc A HUGE problem with developers learning VIM is that they think they have to go from 0 - 100 immediately when you can adopt VIM gradually and still see noticeable efficiency increases.
  - phailhaus 8y ago
    > A HUGE problem with developers learning VIM is that they think they have to go from 0 - 100 immediately when you can adopt VIM gradually and still see noticeable efficiency increases. That iterative process is exactly what I'm talking about. It's taken years to develop my vimrc, because starting with a "prebuilt vimrc" means that you don't really understand what is pure vim, what's custom, and what issues you might run into because of those custom settings conflicting with new plugins.
- alpaca128 8y ago
  It can be tricky, but doesn't depend on the user being an engineer. It mainly requires the right mindset. Some people find even an iPhone too complicated, others don't mind reading the manual for a minute. For some users Vim just makes sense, while certain people will struggle with saving files in Notepad because they think a specific button is at the wrong place and refuse to learn it any other way than they imagined. > I still get frustrated setting up a new computer Why is that? Setting up Vim is the easiest task for me, it's literally just a matter of copying some files.
  - phailhaus 8y ago
    > It can be tricky, but doesn't depend on the user being an engineer. It mainly requires the right mindset. A mindset that is suspiciously similar to an engineer's. :P For example, you need the user to memorize the fact that all the configs are in a ".vimrc" file in their home directory. Oh and since it's a dotfile they might not see it immediately. And then if they want to add custom shortcuts they need to learn exactly how the syntax works, the different "modes", the types of remaps, etc. It's a horrible experience for a non-engineer. > Why is that? Setting up Vim is the easiest task for me, it's literally just a matter of copying some files. I have a lot of plugins (e.g. syntax highlighting, linting, and autocomplete for different languages), and each of those can have their own dependencies that they require you to install before they'll work.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      It's absolutely a matter of mindset. I tend to use the example of a car in these topics, but I have a better one: a coffee maker. There are numerous non-obvious things one has to learn about coffee makers - like how to apply a water filter, and what kind to buy. Like the symbols that mean "not enough water", "not enough coffee", "dredge drawer full", and what to do when they show up. Somehow, I never see anyone complaining about this - because there's a social expectation that people can and should figure this out. The coffee machine comes with a small booklet explaining all of this in pictures and a dozen languages. Yet somehow, with software people think that the UI should just have a button labeled "get my job done", pressing which will get their job done. It's a really broken mindset, because it's impossible (or rather, it's an AI-complete problem) to have software like that.
- _of 8y ago
  not hard. most of those things can be googled in seconds and copy pasted into .vimrc I would say vim is easier to configure than, for example emacs
  - phailhaus 8y ago
    Non-engineer: "What is .vimrc?" And no, for example solarized takes quite a bit of googling to learn exactly which files to copy from GitHub (red flag: non-engineer has to go to GitHub and download a raw file), and then fiddle with the color settings depending on which terminal you're using.
    - mcguire 8y ago
      Ever tried changing the color theme in Eclipse?
- jcranberry 8y ago
  The first time, each of those things probably took me like ten seconds. Cloned into folders specified in readmes. Keybindings are even simpler. Obviously there can be snags on the road and things get more difficult the more complicated things you want to do, but learning the basic keybindings and being able to efficiently edit files with vim just isn't that hard.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Why should a non-engineer use Vim? If you're writing prose not code, then using vim is like using a Hilti rotary hammer to hang picture frames.
  - phailhaus 8y ago
    Yep! They shouldn't! That's what I'm arguing :)
Phenix88be 8y ago
Vim is not hard to learn, a few hours give you the basic. Vim is hard to master. 3 years ago I started to use Spacemacs with evil (so vim) and I keep learning new vim tricks. It's a lot of fun and I really can't go back.
- shriek 8y ago
  Isn't that the whole beauty of it? You're learning what you've already learned on top without having to re-learn everything again. That's primarily why I've stuck with it. That and the fact that it's easily programmable even though VimL leaves you wanting more.
nickjj 8y ago
It's funny you mention printouts. They've been critical for my learning process too. I have a standing desk and as of right now I have 6x sticky notes worth of shortcuts hanging down below my monitor.
- weaksauce 8y ago
  I say that vim is easy to learn if you approach it from the idea that it’s a vocabulary to edit text and not a bunch of arcane invocations. Instead of learning di” as a invocation to delete text inside the current or next pair of double quotes on the line you learn it as a verb and target... d deletes i sets the scope inside something and “ is the target. Then the next time you want to delete inside something all you need to do is change the target up to say single quote or paragraph. or you substitute the inner with a mark or a line number or a regex.
  - nickjj 8y ago
    Yeah once I got to thinking about it being almost like a piano, where you're playing notes or melodies to do something it suddenly all started to click. But still, I have a lot jotted down. Mainly the hotkeys, but also things just to remind myself that a feature exists (like * to highlight the current word).
james_s_tayler 8y ago
I don't have the willpower to learn vim. Everytime I even look at it I think... no. And reach for nano instead and just be inefficient and happy. We're out there.

creyes 8y ago

Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with this. That's like saying that people use a screw driver to screw in a nail because it's a much lower investment and not everyone has the energy to use a drill. The premise of the article is that the VIM is better enough than alternatives that it's worth the learning curve. Just like a drill is better enough than a screwdriver to learn ho to use it. If you want to contest that, that's a different discussion. If your argument is, "some people don't have the energy to use the best tool for the job"... idk how to respond to that.

falcrist 8y ago
Doesn't the screw driver/drill analogy work here too? Drills cost a lot more money than screw drivers or hammers, require that you be working with screws rather than nails, and don't work unless you have electricity. Hence, they're not a worthwhile investment for everyone. If you go far enough, you can cause the analogy to break down, but that's true of any analogy. This breaks down because the ROI for a drill is too short to compare with Vim.
- mcguire 8y ago
  So, notepad, then? :-)