4 ms·

Ditto the Dvorak keyboard enthusiasts...

by mikece 8y ago

hopler 8y ago
Dvorak doesn't save time, it's not faster than qwerty given equal practice
- chrisfinazzo 8y ago
  But given Vim's quirks, is that layout more amenable to working quickly? Given how people gripe about it in QWERTY setups, that's certainly a possibility.
CydeWeys 8y ago
Even less so. Unless you're doing transcription, typing speed is not even close to being the primary limitation on how quickly you work. Thinking of the words is. The difference between a typist who can hit 100 wpm using QWERTY and 110 wpm using DVORAK will only be exposed when playing TypeRacer. Otherwise there's no functional difference. You have to get down to hunt-and-peck until you see typing ability actually affect productivity (and I have seen those people). If you can touch type using any keyboard layout, though, then typing speed won't be a meaningful limitation for you.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  I broke my wrist a few years ago, and had to spend a while typing with one hand on a half-qwerty keyboard setup. I took a huge hit to my typing speed, but the rate at which I was getting work done didn't really change.
  - lfowles 8y ago
    Noticed the same when I switched to an Alphagrip and could only maintain 50-60wpm.
- simias 8y ago
  I switched to Dvorak originally because I wanted to learn how to touchtype and using Dvorak meant that I couldn't cheat by looking at the keyboard. We're now almost 15 years later and I don't regret my choice, I don't know if typing in Dvorak is really faster than QWERTY but it definitely feels very comfortable. That's a very significant functional difference, most of the typing in Dvorak occurs around the home row. When you type for hours every day it's well worth the switch IMO. Get a good ergonomic keyboard while you're at it. That being said if I anybody reading this is tempted to switch away from QWERTY towards a more ergonomic layout I'd suggest looking into Colemak, it's supposed to be at least as ergonomic as Dvorak while being closer to the standard QWERTY layout.
  - yboris 8y ago
    I also endorse the switch to Dvorak -- I find it more comfortable (less finger movement feels calmer). I can also switch between keyboard layouts within a few conscious keystrokes, after that the 'muscle memory' takes over. I suspect Colemak is better, but it's a much smaller gain going from Dvorak to Colemak than from Qwerty to Dvorak, so I'll stick to what I have. Otherwise I suspect Colemak is better than Dvorak when switching from QWERTY.
    - simias 8y ago
      >I suspect Colemak is better, but it's a much smaller gain going from Dvorak to Colemak than from Qwerty to Dvorak, so I'll stick to what I have. Yeah I'm in the same boat, that's why I was mainly aiming my comment at people using QWERTY and looking to switch to a better layout. Even the Colemak people acknowledge that: https://colemak.com/FAQ#Is_it_worth_switching_from_Dvorak_to_Colemak.3F https://colemak.com/FAQ#Is_it_worth_switching_from_Dvorak_to... > The Colemak keyboard layout fixes all the issues mentioned above, and wins in virtually every criterion, but the difference will be less noticeable than the difference between QWERTY and Dvorak. The switch won't be as easy for veteran Dvorak users. If you're generally happy with Dvorak, you should probably stick with it. The FAQ also has an interesting list of "what's wrong with the Dvorak layout" which might be of interest for people looking to learn it: https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layou...
adimitrov 8y ago
As a Dvorak and Vim (Spacemacs, really) user, I don't get this argument. It's not about speed. Sure, some people say it's about speed, on either side of the debate, but I'm not a faster typist, nor a faster editor, nor would it matter in my profession (coding.) It's about ease of use. Once you're used to them, these tools save you (cognitive) overhead. Dvorak doesn't tire out my wrists (subjective, but I switched away from Qwerty&Emacs after developing RSI when writing larger technical documentation. Never had the same problem with Vim&Dvorak, even when writing frantically day and night on my thesis.) And Vim allows me to navigate text easily. It's not about speed. It's about intuitively navigating to something quickly, without having to think about it, and to stop and completely upend my current focus because I have to hunt & peck for something with my mouse.
- oblio 8y ago
  And then you have to work on another computer with a QWERTY layout. Or a colleague comes over for pair programming or to check something. Oooops! I've changed my keyboard layouts in the past. My conclusion: there's value in standardization.
  - C4stor 8y ago
    There's really no reason to disagree here. From the person you replied to > Never had the same problem with Vim&Dvorak, even when writing frantically day and night on my thesis Most of the graduate students I've knew spent a lot of time working alone, and had at some point to type a lot of things already clear in their head meaning ease and speed of typing was a very important factor, keyboard sharing not so much. And then I've observed the same things as you, it's really annoying working at the desktop of my colleagues using non standards keyboards. So, really, it's all dependent on context, and as usual there's a right tool for a given job. Kudos to both of you for coming to correct conclusions in your given environments :-)
  - adimitrov 8y ago
    It's not an issue to know both keyboard layouts. I know 3.5 layouts (QWERTY, QWERTZ, Dvorak, Bulgarian BDS.) Colleagues have a switch. setxkbmap -option compose:ralt or whatever your DE wants you to use.

Ditto the Dvorak keyboard enthusiasts...

by mikece 8y ago

Ditto the Dvorak keyboard enthusiasts...

hopler 8y ago

Dvorak doesn't save time, it's not faster than qwerty given equal practice

chrisfinazzo 8y ago
But given Vim's quirks, is that layout more amenable to working quickly? Given how people gripe about it in QWERTY setups, that's certainly a possibility.

CydeWeys 8y ago

Even less so. Unless you're doing transcription, typing speed is not even close to being the primary limitation on how quickly you work. Thinking of the words is. The difference between a typist who can hit 100 wpm using QWERTY and 110 wpm using DVORAK will only be exposed when playing TypeRacer. Otherwise there's no functional difference. You have to get down to hunt-and-peck until you see typing ability actually affect productivity (and I have seen those people). If you can touch type using any keyboard layout, though, then typing speed won't be a meaningful limitation for you.

bunderbunder 8y ago
I broke my wrist a few years ago, and had to spend a while typing with one hand on a half-qwerty keyboard setup. I took a huge hit to my typing speed, but the rate at which I was getting work done didn't really change.
- lfowles 8y ago
  Noticed the same when I switched to an Alphagrip and could only maintain 50-60wpm.
simias 8y ago
I switched to Dvorak originally because I wanted to learn how to touchtype and using Dvorak meant that I couldn't cheat by looking at the keyboard. We're now almost 15 years later and I don't regret my choice, I don't know if typing in Dvorak is really faster than QWERTY but it definitely feels very comfortable. That's a very significant functional difference, most of the typing in Dvorak occurs around the home row. When you type for hours every day it's well worth the switch IMO. Get a good ergonomic keyboard while you're at it. That being said if I anybody reading this is tempted to switch away from QWERTY towards a more ergonomic layout I'd suggest looking into Colemak, it's supposed to be at least as ergonomic as Dvorak while being closer to the standard QWERTY layout.
- yboris 8y ago
  I also endorse the switch to Dvorak -- I find it more comfortable (less finger movement feels calmer). I can also switch between keyboard layouts within a few conscious keystrokes, after that the 'muscle memory' takes over. I suspect Colemak is better, but it's a much smaller gain going from Dvorak to Colemak than from Qwerty to Dvorak, so I'll stick to what I have. Otherwise I suspect Colemak is better than Dvorak when switching from QWERTY.
  - simias 8y ago
    >I suspect Colemak is better, but it's a much smaller gain going from Dvorak to Colemak than from Qwerty to Dvorak, so I'll stick to what I have. Yeah I'm in the same boat, that's why I was mainly aiming my comment at people using QWERTY and looking to switch to a better layout. Even the Colemak people acknowledge that: https://colemak.com/FAQ#Is_it_worth_switching_from_Dvorak_to_Colemak.3F https://colemak.com/FAQ#Is_it_worth_switching_from_Dvorak_to... > The Colemak keyboard layout fixes all the issues mentioned above, and wins in virtually every criterion, but the difference will be less noticeable than the difference between QWERTY and Dvorak. The switch won't be as easy for veteran Dvorak users. If you're generally happy with Dvorak, you should probably stick with it. The FAQ also has an interesting list of "what's wrong with the Dvorak layout" which might be of interest for people looking to learn it: https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layou...

adimitrov 8y ago

As a Dvorak and Vim (Spacemacs, really) user, I don't get this argument. It's not about speed. Sure, some people say it's about speed, on either side of the debate, but I'm not a faster typist, nor a faster editor, nor would it matter in my profession (coding.) It's about ease of use. Once you're used to them, these tools save you (cognitive) overhead. Dvorak doesn't tire out my wrists (subjective, but I switched away from Qwerty&Emacs after developing RSI when writing larger technical documentation. Never had the same problem with Vim&Dvorak, even when writing frantically day and night on my thesis.) And Vim allows me to navigate text easily. It's not about speed. It's about intuitively navigating to something quickly, without having to think about it, and to stop and completely upend my current focus because I have to hunt & peck for something with my mouse.

oblio 8y ago
And then you have to work on another computer with a QWERTY layout. Or a colleague comes over for pair programming or to check something. Oooops! I've changed my keyboard layouts in the past. My conclusion: there's value in standardization.
- C4stor 8y ago
  There's really no reason to disagree here. From the person you replied to > Never had the same problem with Vim&Dvorak, even when writing frantically day and night on my thesis Most of the graduate students I've knew spent a lot of time working alone, and had at some point to type a lot of things already clear in their head meaning ease and speed of typing was a very important factor, keyboard sharing not so much. And then I've observed the same things as you, it's really annoying working at the desktop of my colleagues using non standards keyboards. So, really, it's all dependent on context, and as usual there's a right tool for a given job. Kudos to both of you for coming to correct conclusions in your given environments :-)
- adimitrov 8y ago
  It's not an issue to know both keyboard layouts. I know 3.5 layouts (QWERTY, QWERTZ, Dvorak, Bulgarian BDS.) Colleagues have a switch. setxkbmap -option compose:ralt or whatever your DE wants you to use.