10 ms·

Dreaming Is the Inverse of Anxious Mind-Wandering

140 points by FailMore 8y ago

FavouriteColour 8y ago
“Fourteen examples of dreams are presented, including seven examples of interpretation, three examples of successful dream content prediction (a first for an interpretive theory of dreams), and four examples of dreams which demonstrate how in-dream behaviour changes during successful therapy, three of which are my own” The study includes a total of 14 dreams of which 3 are the author’s. I’ll take it with a grain of salt.
- FailMore 8y ago
  Fair enough, as I write in the conclusion: This paper should not be viewed as an attempt to prove beyond doubt that the function of dreams is to highlight anxieties, but to provide food for thought for future research. There is a neurological basis for the argument put forward and using dreams in this way has been beneficial in my own therapy and in directing my guidance of others. Please play with your own dreams and those of your friends using the methods of interpretation and prediction outlined above and, if you are in the position to do so, consider testing the ideas presented using established research methods. If we do have an inbuilt method of anxiety diagnosis, which means we are not forced into taking such drastic maladaptive actions while awake in order to communicate our anxieties to others, then a great deal of mental pain may be able to be avoided.
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    So would you say it is more fair to treat the paper as if it argues this hypothesis passes a basic smell-test and is worthy of deeper investigation?
    - FailMore 8y ago
      My personal experience with the theory has been extensive and I am quite confident, but yes - from a broader point of view I think anyone with academic perspective should read it as food for thought for potential future investigations.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  I remember more dreams of my own than there are dreams described on the paper.
OscarTheGrinch 8y ago
Not reading an article with a silly title is the inverse of reading it.
nyc111 8y ago
But dreaming is related to the gut not the brain. What we eat before we go to sleep decides what we dream about. Dream is related to the microbiome. We are conscious of only the dreams just before we wake up. That is, before the conscious mind awakens.
- simion314 8y ago
  This claim needs some strong studies, there may be a link but not a direct cause, like I don't eat well I have no dreams at all.
  - nyc111 8y ago
    It's true that some nights we sleep deeply and we are not aware of any dreams. I think this happens when the digestive system is not doing any work, that is, if we go to sleep with empty stomach.
    - simion314 8y ago
      For me it depends of tired I am, if I do too much physical work then when I wake up it feels I just slept 5 minutes. If i don't sleep enough then I don't remember any dreams , if I sleep enough hours i will remember my morning dreams. For my case part of my dreams are related with my anxieties or things I want hard to do.
- mtgx 8y ago
  Can you elaborate? Does that mean that if you something that your "good bacteria" likes, then you'll have nice dreams, and if you eat something your "bad bacteria" likes you'll have nightmares? Or how exactly would that work? Or are you just referring to being able to dream at all being linked to having enough good bacteria?
  - nyc111 8y ago
    I just think it has something to do with the bacteria but I don't know how it works. I think that by personal experience certain kind of food causes nightmares. I associate nightmares with food that cause bloating like starch. And also cheese and dairy and fermented food. But I did not try a scientific study by eating for instance dairy and note if I had nightmares. As you say it is most probably related to good and bad bacteria. Also, let's not forget that during sleep consciousness is asleep and if there is a danger the microbes may need to wake up the consciousness and one way of doing this is serve nightmares to the consciousness. I believe that there is a complex relationship with the gut microbes and the consciousness and we don't know how this works.
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
This paper focuses mostly on interpreting reactions to in-dream situations as a way to evaluate what things we are anxious or avoidant about. Eg. If someone makes a demand you don’t want to do in a dream, and you do it, you have anxiety about standing up for yourself. This is highly generic and I am skeptical it’s applicable to anyone with off the Wall dreams or people who have specific illnesses that affect the way they dream (eg. Schizophrenics have anecdata about unusual dreams). But I think in More neurotypical perspectives with certain kinds of dreams this could work as a way to frame interpretation. What rubs me the wrong way, however, is that the paper also implies that the less anxious you are the more normal you are in your dreams. I’m not sure how I feel about that. (Some disclaimer: I have a condition that gives me very vivid dreams that are not set in reality. I’ve yet to find a way to suitably interpret them in a way that meshes with academia.)
- FailMore 8y ago
  > What rubs me the wrong way, however, is that the paper also implies that the less anxious you are the more normal you are in your dreams. Hi, thanks for your comment. To be clear, it is not a value judgement by any means. We do not have responsibility for the feelings that we have and how they are surfaced in dreams. I have found it is the case that as an anxiety is worked through (e.g., I was anxious about standing up for myself, and practiced this in real life and found that I did not need to be so scared of it) the behaviour in the dream shifts to suit the demands of the situation more. These changes could be in accordance with the reconsolidation of the fear memory in the retrosplenial cortex (an area of the brain thought to be responsible for storing episodic fear memories which is more active during REM sleep than during waking). However, this is not where the process ends. When an anxiety is dealt with, another one surfaces and the behaviour is again at odds with the demand of the situation. So the 'normality' is short lived (and is not useful). It is the case that individuals who experience less fear have more positive dream content, such as those with non-functioning amygdalas (Domhoff, 2017), individuals with greater wellbeing (Sikka, Pesonen, & Revonsuo, 2018), and even the Dalai Lama (Mehrotra & Lama, 2005). Those who have greater wellbeing also have fewer recurring dreams (Gauchat, Zadra, Tremblay, Zelazo, & Séguin, 2009). These are not my views, and I do not have an opinion on what type of content is 'better', but they are the results from other studies.
flavor8 8y ago
I'd say meditation is the inverse of anxious mind wandering. I've tried a few techniques, and Vipassana is to me the most interesting. There's a _little_ bit of buddhist dogma which comes with most books / lessons, but that's easily ignored - otherwise it's zero woo: the 99% core of what is taught is psychology and practical techniques. The practice itself involves balancing concentration with active awareness / "mindfulness" - once you've got a handle on it, it's a robust technique for staying on top of stress, among other benefits.
- FailMore 8y ago
  It is the content of the dreams which is the inverse of the anxious mind-wandering. During anxious mind-wandering situations which demand avoidant behaviour enter the mind. For example, an individual with obsessive compulsive disorder may visualise that they are contaminated (imagined experience) and therefore must wash their hands (the avoidant action; Mcguire et al., 1994). Alternatively, an individual with social anxiety disorder might im-agine being in a conversation and having nothing to talk about (imagined future scenario) and therefore will avoid entering a conversation (avoidant action; Richards, 2013). However in dreams I am suggesting that the situations imagined call for un-avoidant behaviour. For example Tim's dream in the paper: > Tim’s father gives him a large volume of prescription drugs which he knows could kill him if he takes them all. Tim’s father wants him to swallow all the pills at once. Tim does not want to! However, he swallows the pills without protest. In this situation it is clear that avoiding the confrontation and swallowing the pills is not a sensible decision. The situation calls for un-avoidant behaviour (saying no to his father). It is in this way that I am arguing that dreaming is the inverse of anxious mind-wandering. It is interesting that those who do a lot of mediation have been seen to be less reactive to norepinephrine (a neurotransmitter associated to stress).
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    > It is in this way that I am arguing that dreaming is the inverse of anxious mind-wandering. I am still a bit uncertain what you mean with "this way". Are you saying that anxious mind-wandering typically results in a pro-active reaction, whereas in the dream one is passive? That is: an appropriate response and an inappropriate response to the imagined scenarios? (note: this is not the same as whether the imagined scenarios themselves are appropriate) > It is interesting that those who do a lot of mediation have been seen to be less reactive to norepinephrine (a neurotransmitter associated to stress). Mediation or meditation?
StrangeOrange 8y ago
Really interesting study. Matches well with my own experiences. I used to have recurring dreams (both specific instances recurring and themes recurring) which mostly revolved around being chased, being attacked, most often with knives (I grew up in Glasgow, and there's lots of them about). I realised at some point that as my self-confidence grew (due to various factors), instead of getting caught in the dreams I would manage to escape and run away. And then eventually (with greater amounts of confidence) I started fighting back and winning. These themes still recur when I'm in various states of high or low self-esteem/self-confidence. And there are separate themes related to separate fears which also follow this pattern. It's a shame that so many people will blast studies like these for being too small, but it's the start that needs to happen before we get to the end, and I think it's fascinating work. I hope to see more detailed investigations like this in future, and a building body of literature on the subject.
- FailMore 8y ago
  Thank you very much for sharing your experience with dreams! I have made a website to gather scientific research on this interpretation https://docbt.org/ https://docbt.org/ (Dream Orientated Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) and we are on twitter too https://twitter.com/docbt1 https://twitter.com/docbt1. I know that the gold standard of studies are random control trials, but to begin the argument I think that more qualitative studies can be useful to establish an idea. That was my intention with this paper.
  - erokar 8y ago
    Are you aware of "the functional approach to dreams": https://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Waking-Functional-Approach-Dreams-ebook/dp/B00ILCPODM https://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Waking-Functional-Approach-D... Seems a bit similar and might be worth checking out. (One of the authors, Corriere, later lost his licenses to practice psychology -- but it doesn't necessarily invalidate their theory.)
    - FailMore 8y ago
      Thanks, I will research it. Read a lot of papers so I can’t remeber if I’ve seen that theory or not!
vanderZwan 8y ago
I'm sure this is nuanced in the paper, but what about when someone dreams that their partner does something bad to them, then when awake is upset with said partner for this imagined event? I speak from experience with being the partner in this scenario. I mean, yes, in some sense the dream encourages someone to confront the anxiety rather than avoid it, but here it feels more like jumping past the real source of anxiety and lashing out against the imagined one.
- FailMore 8y ago
  I think this could be a good example of the theory. I'm afraid that your partner believing you have done something is a bit unlucky! But you should ask her what she is doing in the dream when you are doing something bad to them. If she is repressing her response to you in the dream, I am suggesting it is likely that she is repressing this emotion in waking life too.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
jimkri 8y ago
I haven't read the paper yet, but I plan on reading it tonight. It's so great that this came at a time where I've been researching Neurofeedback treatment, how Meditation effects certain brain activities, stoicism, and other mindfulness practices. When I was younger I would have a lot of night terrors, sleep walking, you name it because of a stressful family situation. So I'm really interested to read about the studies, because I never thought about using my dreams to understand how my brain/thoughts are while awake. I'm totally open to discussing this more with anyone that is interested!
samirm 8y ago
>"Though the situations in dreams call for un-avoidant behaviour, dreamers act with avoidance." this is the biggest issue I have with this paper. This assumption is simply false

140 points by FailMore 8y ago

“Fourteen examples of dreams are presented, including seven examples of interpretation, three examples of successful dream content prediction (a first for an interpretive theory of dreams), and four examples of dreams which demonstrate how in-dream behaviour changes during successful therapy, three of which are my own” The study includes a total of 14 dreams of which 3 are the author’s. I’ll take it with a grain of salt.

FailMore 8y ago
Fair enough, as I write in the conclusion: This paper should not be viewed as an attempt to prove beyond doubt that the function of dreams is to highlight anxieties, but to provide food for thought for future research. There is a neurological basis for the argument put forward and using dreams in this way has been beneficial in my own therapy and in directing my guidance of others. Please play with your own dreams and those of your friends using the methods of interpretation and prediction outlined above and, if you are in the position to do so, consider testing the ideas presented using established research methods. If we do have an inbuilt method of anxiety diagnosis, which means we are not forced into taking such drastic maladaptive actions while awake in order to communicate our anxieties to others, then a great deal of mental pain may be able to be avoided.
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  So would you say it is more fair to treat the paper as if it argues this hypothesis passes a basic smell-test and is worthy of deeper investigation?
  - FailMore 8y ago
    My personal experience with the theory has been extensive and I am quite confident, but yes - from a broader point of view I think anyone with academic perspective should read it as food for thought for potential future investigations.
heavenlyblue 8y ago
I remember more dreams of my own than there are dreams described on the paper.

OscarTheGrinch 8y ago

Not reading an article with a silly title is the inverse of reading it.

nyc111 8y ago

But dreaming is related to the gut not the brain. What we eat before we go to sleep decides what we dream about. Dream is related to the microbiome. We are conscious of only the dreams just before we wake up. That is, before the conscious mind awakens.

simion314 8y ago
This claim needs some strong studies, there may be a link but not a direct cause, like I don't eat well I have no dreams at all.
- nyc111 8y ago
  It's true that some nights we sleep deeply and we are not aware of any dreams. I think this happens when the digestive system is not doing any work, that is, if we go to sleep with empty stomach.
  - simion314 8y ago
    For me it depends of tired I am, if I do too much physical work then when I wake up it feels I just slept 5 minutes. If i don't sleep enough then I don't remember any dreams , if I sleep enough hours i will remember my morning dreams. For my case part of my dreams are related with my anxieties or things I want hard to do.
mtgx 8y ago
Can you elaborate? Does that mean that if you something that your "good bacteria" likes, then you'll have nice dreams, and if you eat something your "bad bacteria" likes you'll have nightmares? Or how exactly would that work? Or are you just referring to being able to dream at all being linked to having enough good bacteria?
- nyc111 8y ago
  I just think it has something to do with the bacteria but I don't know how it works. I think that by personal experience certain kind of food causes nightmares. I associate nightmares with food that cause bloating like starch. And also cheese and dairy and fermented food. But I did not try a scientific study by eating for instance dairy and note if I had nightmares. As you say it is most probably related to good and bad bacteria. Also, let's not forget that during sleep consciousness is asleep and if there is a danger the microbes may need to wake up the consciousness and one way of doing this is serve nightmares to the consciousness. I believe that there is a complex relationship with the gut microbes and the consciousness and we don't know how this works.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

This paper focuses mostly on interpreting reactions to in-dream situations as a way to evaluate what things we are anxious or avoidant about. Eg. If someone makes a demand you don’t want to do in a dream, and you do it, you have anxiety about standing up for yourself. This is highly generic and I am skeptical it’s applicable to anyone with off the Wall dreams or people who have specific illnesses that affect the way they dream (eg. Schizophrenics have anecdata about unusual dreams). But I think in More neurotypical perspectives with certain kinds of dreams this could work as a way to frame interpretation. What rubs me the wrong way, however, is that the paper also implies that the less anxious you are the more normal you are in your dreams. I’m not sure how I feel about that. (Some disclaimer: I have a condition that gives me very vivid dreams that are not set in reality. I’ve yet to find a way to suitably interpret them in a way that meshes with academia.)

FailMore 8y ago
> What rubs me the wrong way, however, is that the paper also implies that the less anxious you are the more normal you are in your dreams. Hi, thanks for your comment. To be clear, it is not a value judgement by any means. We do not have responsibility for the feelings that we have and how they are surfaced in dreams. I have found it is the case that as an anxiety is worked through (e.g., I was anxious about standing up for myself, and practiced this in real life and found that I did not need to be so scared of it) the behaviour in the dream shifts to suit the demands of the situation more. These changes could be in accordance with the reconsolidation of the fear memory in the retrosplenial cortex (an area of the brain thought to be responsible for storing episodic fear memories which is more active during REM sleep than during waking). However, this is not where the process ends. When an anxiety is dealt with, another one surfaces and the behaviour is again at odds with the demand of the situation. So the 'normality' is short lived (and is not useful). It is the case that individuals who experience less fear have more positive dream content, such as those with non-functioning amygdalas (Domhoff, 2017), individuals with greater wellbeing (Sikka, Pesonen, & Revonsuo, 2018), and even the Dalai Lama (Mehrotra & Lama, 2005). Those who have greater wellbeing also have fewer recurring dreams (Gauchat, Zadra, Tremblay, Zelazo, & Séguin, 2009). These are not my views, and I do not have an opinion on what type of content is 'better', but they are the results from other studies.

flavor8 8y ago

I'd say meditation is the inverse of anxious mind wandering. I've tried a few techniques, and Vipassana is to me the most interesting. There's a _little_ bit of buddhist dogma which comes with most books / lessons, but that's easily ignored - otherwise it's zero woo: the 99% core of what is taught is psychology and practical techniques. The practice itself involves balancing concentration with active awareness / "mindfulness" - once you've got a handle on it, it's a robust technique for staying on top of stress, among other benefits.

FailMore 8y ago
It is the content of the dreams which is the inverse of the anxious mind-wandering. During anxious mind-wandering situations which demand avoidant behaviour enter the mind. For example, an individual with obsessive compulsive disorder may visualise that they are contaminated (imagined experience) and therefore must wash their hands (the avoidant action; Mcguire et al., 1994). Alternatively, an individual with social anxiety disorder might im-agine being in a conversation and having nothing to talk about (imagined future scenario) and therefore will avoid entering a conversation (avoidant action; Richards, 2013). However in dreams I am suggesting that the situations imagined call for un-avoidant behaviour. For example Tim's dream in the paper: > Tim’s father gives him a large volume of prescription drugs which he knows could kill him if he takes them all. Tim’s father wants him to swallow all the pills at once. Tim does not want to! However, he swallows the pills without protest. In this situation it is clear that avoiding the confrontation and swallowing the pills is not a sensible decision. The situation calls for un-avoidant behaviour (saying no to his father). It is in this way that I am arguing that dreaming is the inverse of anxious mind-wandering. It is interesting that those who do a lot of mediation have been seen to be less reactive to norepinephrine (a neurotransmitter associated to stress).
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  > It is in this way that I am arguing that dreaming is the inverse of anxious mind-wandering. I am still a bit uncertain what you mean with "this way". Are you saying that anxious mind-wandering typically results in a pro-active reaction, whereas in the dream one is passive? That is: an appropriate response and an inappropriate response to the imagined scenarios? (note: this is not the same as whether the imagined scenarios themselves are appropriate) > It is interesting that those who do a lot of mediation have been seen to be less reactive to norepinephrine (a neurotransmitter associated to stress). Mediation or meditation?

StrangeOrange 8y ago

Really interesting study. Matches well with my own experiences. I used to have recurring dreams (both specific instances recurring and themes recurring) which mostly revolved around being chased, being attacked, most often with knives (I grew up in Glasgow, and there's lots of them about). I realised at some point that as my self-confidence grew (due to various factors), instead of getting caught in the dreams I would manage to escape and run away. And then eventually (with greater amounts of confidence) I started fighting back and winning. These themes still recur when I'm in various states of high or low self-esteem/self-confidence. And there are separate themes related to separate fears which also follow this pattern. It's a shame that so many people will blast studies like these for being too small, but it's the start that needs to happen before we get to the end, and I think it's fascinating work. I hope to see more detailed investigations like this in future, and a building body of literature on the subject.

FailMore 8y ago
Thank you very much for sharing your experience with dreams! I have made a website to gather scientific research on this interpretation https://docbt.org/ https://docbt.org/ (Dream Orientated Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) and we are on twitter too https://twitter.com/docbt1 https://twitter.com/docbt1. I know that the gold standard of studies are random control trials, but to begin the argument I think that more qualitative studies can be useful to establish an idea. That was my intention with this paper.
- erokar 8y ago
  Are you aware of "the functional approach to dreams": https://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Waking-Functional-Approach-Dreams-ebook/dp/B00ILCPODM https://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Waking-Functional-Approach-D... Seems a bit similar and might be worth checking out. (One of the authors, Corriere, later lost his licenses to practice psychology -- but it doesn't necessarily invalidate their theory.)
  - FailMore 8y ago
    Thanks, I will research it. Read a lot of papers so I can’t remeber if I’ve seen that theory or not!

vanderZwan 8y ago

I'm sure this is nuanced in the paper, but what about when someone dreams that their partner does something bad to them, then when awake is upset with said partner for this imagined event? I speak from experience with being the partner in this scenario. I mean, yes, in some sense the dream encourages someone to confront the anxiety rather than avoid it, but here it feels more like jumping past the real source of anxiety and lashing out against the imagined one.

FailMore 8y ago
I think this could be a good example of the theory. I'm afraid that your partner believing you have done something is a bit unlucky! But you should ask her what she is doing in the dream when you are doing something bad to them. If she is repressing her response to you in the dream, I am suggesting it is likely that she is repressing this emotion in waking life too.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

jimkri 8y ago

I haven't read the paper yet, but I plan on reading it tonight. It's so great that this came at a time where I've been researching Neurofeedback treatment, how Meditation effects certain brain activities, stoicism, and other mindfulness practices. When I was younger I would have a lot of night terrors, sleep walking, you name it because of a stressful family situation. So I'm really interested to read about the studies, because I never thought about using my dreams to understand how my brain/thoughts are while awake. I'm totally open to discussing this more with anyone that is interested!

samirm 8y ago

>"Though the situations in dreams call for un-avoidant behaviour, dreamers act with avoidance." this is the biggest issue I have with this paper. This assumption is simply false