5 ms·

This is a great idea. But outside of this would anyone be interested in meeting up at tech companies and protesting?

ng12 8y ago
For what? So Apple removes the app from the store. Does that materially impact Saudi Arabi's institutional oppression of women?
- thatoneyouthrow 8y ago
  If CEO's don't care about women in Saudi Arabia do you think they care about women in the USA? We have to start somewhere.
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  Yes. The app makes it much more difficult for women to subvert the oppression. Before the app the government used little paper slips to grant travel permission, now the "guardians" get SMS notifications when a woman's passport is scanned.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - diebeforei485 8y ago
    So, how will getting rid of an app stop the SMS notification system?
    - peteradio 8y ago
      How will getting rid of the technology that makes this possible stop it?
      - natch 8y ago
        Little by little. Yes faster ways would be better... got any?
      - diebeforei485 8y ago
        The app is not the technology that makes this possible. It's just a webview around their website, and the SMS messages (not push notification) are sent directly to the phone via the cellular network. Will anyone be able to silently leave the country if this app was pulled from the store? No, the SMS messages would still be sent, because they have nothing to do with the app.
    - natch 8y ago
      I’m not advocating that anybody DDOS their SMS system with fake alerts. But at least an app protects against that to a greater degree than an SMS solution. The app creates a safe space for oppression.
- natch 8y ago
  Yes. Creating safe spaces for slavery and oppression is not what the App Store should be doing. It may not seem like much but every bit helps.
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    On one hand I think Apple and Google should drop this, and never should have hosted it. On the other hand I disagree with your assesment that “every little bit helps.” Too often these largely symbolic acts do little more than assuage guilt, they don’t improve anyone’s life. Think of it this way, if you’re riddled with cancer, and I offer you a single dose of chemo, you might reasonably complain that I’ve done nothing for you. If I then shrugged and said that at least I tried, and every little bit helps, you’d be well within your rights to laugh in my face. Sometimes helping just a very little bit is as good as doing nothing, or even worse, because doing nothing at least is unequivocal in terms of moral culpability. In this case we’re talking about Saudi Arabia, a country with vast riches because we all buy their oil and kiss their asses. It’s like my government (U.K.) crying about Yemen while selling the Saudis more weapons. Helping is a good idea, we shouldn’t host these apps, shouldn’t sell them weapons, and frankly shouldn’t dare to pat ourselves even slightly on the back for it.
joejerryronnie 8y ago
It’s interesting that we’re all terrified of big tech’s growing base of power over our lives, yet more and more we expect big tech to take care of problems that governments are typically responsible for.
- geofft 8y ago
  Big tech is already very powerful, and there are very few feasible ways to stop that. But it is a bit more feasible to demand that big tech use its power in certain ways. They are already at the point where almost anything they do will have an impact with moral implications, the way that an elephant walking through a field is going to crush some flowers or grasses. (See, for instance, Twitter aiding the Arab Spring by basically just existing, Facebook aiding the Rohingya genocide by basically just existing, and WhatsApp enabling mob violence in India by basically just existing.) So, we might as well demand that they step on the things we wish them to step on.
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    This quickly leads to unintended consequences. What happens if a large group of people (perhaps wearing red hats with a four letter acroynym) decide they want big tech to step on a flower you hold dear?
    - geofft 8y ago
      I don't think I'll be able to prevent them from making that demand simply if I don't make demands either. (I certainly don't think that they're not smart enough to realize that a demand could be made until they see me make one, for instance, nor that they're that exact shade of polite that thinks this is an illegitimate tactic until they see it used at which point it becomes legitimate.) So I don't think this is, in any way, a consequence. Even asking big tech to step on them seems to have a better chance of accomplishing my goals.
      - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
        > I don't think I'll be able to prevent them from making that demand simply if I don't make demands either. (I certainly don't think that they're not smart enough to realize that a demand could be made until they see me make one, for instance, nor that they're that exact shade of polite that thinks this is an illegitimate tactic until they see it used at which point it becomes legitimate.) It's not that they won't make demands, it's that they'll use your demands to legitimize theirs. If you don't make any then you can credibly defend against theirs by saying that nobody should. If you do, what will you say to theirs? Do as I say not as I do? > Even asking big tech to step on them seems to have a better chance of accomplishing my goals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)

ng12 8y ago

For what? So Apple removes the app from the store. Does that materially impact Saudi Arabi's institutional oppression of women?

thatoneyouthrow 8y ago
If CEO's don't care about women in Saudi Arabia do you think they care about women in the USA? We have to start somewhere.
inferiorhuman 8y ago
Yes. The app makes it much more difficult for women to subvert the oppression. Before the app the government used little paper slips to grant travel permission, now the "guardians" get SMS notifications when a woman's passport is scanned.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- diebeforei485 8y ago
  So, how will getting rid of an app stop the SMS notification system?
  - peteradio 8y ago
    How will getting rid of the technology that makes this possible stop it?
    - natch 8y ago
      Little by little. Yes faster ways would be better... got any?
    - diebeforei485 8y ago
      The app is not the technology that makes this possible. It's just a webview around their website, and the SMS messages (not push notification) are sent directly to the phone via the cellular network. Will anyone be able to silently leave the country if this app was pulled from the store? No, the SMS messages would still be sent, because they have nothing to do with the app.
  - natch 8y ago
    I’m not advocating that anybody DDOS their SMS system with fake alerts. But at least an app protects against that to a greater degree than an SMS solution. The app creates a safe space for oppression.
natch 8y ago
Yes. Creating safe spaces for slavery and oppression is not what the App Store should be doing. It may not seem like much but every bit helps.
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  On one hand I think Apple and Google should drop this, and never should have hosted it. On the other hand I disagree with your assesment that “every little bit helps.” Too often these largely symbolic acts do little more than assuage guilt, they don’t improve anyone’s life. Think of it this way, if you’re riddled with cancer, and I offer you a single dose of chemo, you might reasonably complain that I’ve done nothing for you. If I then shrugged and said that at least I tried, and every little bit helps, you’d be well within your rights to laugh in my face. Sometimes helping just a very little bit is as good as doing nothing, or even worse, because doing nothing at least is unequivocal in terms of moral culpability. In this case we’re talking about Saudi Arabia, a country with vast riches because we all buy their oil and kiss their asses. It’s like my government (U.K.) crying about Yemen while selling the Saudis more weapons. Helping is a good idea, we shouldn’t host these apps, shouldn’t sell them weapons, and frankly shouldn’t dare to pat ourselves even slightly on the back for it.

joejerryronnie 8y ago

It’s interesting that we’re all terrified of big tech’s growing base of power over our lives, yet more and more we expect big tech to take care of problems that governments are typically responsible for.

geofft 8y ago
Big tech is already very powerful, and there are very few feasible ways to stop that. But it is a bit more feasible to demand that big tech use its power in certain ways. They are already at the point where almost anything they do will have an impact with moral implications, the way that an elephant walking through a field is going to crush some flowers or grasses. (See, for instance, Twitter aiding the Arab Spring by basically just existing, Facebook aiding the Rohingya genocide by basically just existing, and WhatsApp enabling mob violence in India by basically just existing.) So, we might as well demand that they step on the things we wish them to step on.
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  This quickly leads to unintended consequences. What happens if a large group of people (perhaps wearing red hats with a four letter acroynym) decide they want big tech to step on a flower you hold dear?
  - geofft 8y ago
    I don't think I'll be able to prevent them from making that demand simply if I don't make demands either. (I certainly don't think that they're not smart enough to realize that a demand could be made until they see me make one, for instance, nor that they're that exact shade of polite that thinks this is an illegitimate tactic until they see it used at which point it becomes legitimate.) So I don't think this is, in any way, a consequence. Even asking big tech to step on them seems to have a better chance of accomplishing my goals.
    - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
      > I don't think I'll be able to prevent them from making that demand simply if I don't make demands either. (I certainly don't think that they're not smart enough to realize that a demand could be made until they see me make one, for instance, nor that they're that exact shade of polite that thinks this is an illegitimate tactic until they see it used at which point it becomes legitimate.) It's not that they won't make demands, it's that they'll use your demands to legitimize theirs. If you don't make any then you can credibly defend against theirs by saying that nobody should. If you do, what will you say to theirs? Do as I say not as I do? > Even asking big tech to step on them seems to have a better chance of accomplishing my goals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)