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The idea that an "all-powerful small ethnic Jewish lobby" can trick the corporate elite of America for decades to do things against their interests is, putting

The idea that an "all-powerful small ethnic Jewish lobby" can trick the corporate elite of America for decades to do things against their interests is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. It is a way of deflecting blame away from the U.S. government itself.[1] The strategic interests are obvious: Israel is one of the largest military powers in the middle east and a means to project U.S. power over it. This was observed by the Pentagon as early as the late 1940s.[2] This is why the U.S. has given so much financial, military and diplomatic aid to Israel, one of the effects of which has been to build up its tech industry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM

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Udik 8y ago
> The idea ... is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. And yet it's what any other lobby does. Let's just clear a first point: the lobby exists. It has websites: https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/ And it's not just made of "ethnic jews": https://www.cufi.org/ https://www.cufi.org/ As for the strategic interest, it might have been obvious at the beginning of Israel, now not so much. Let me remind you that Israel is an aggressive state in contravention of international law since many decades, with a history of ethnic cleansing [1] and apartheid [2], and that such practices are drivers of instability and violence in the region, and that supporting and defending them has a political and military cost. The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "war on terror" were part of this costs, as stated clearly by the perpetrators of the attacks. [3] Have a read of this article by a former US ambassador in the region, that discusses the reality of the strategic value and "US power projection" provided by Israel to the US: https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-the-big-lie-that-israel-is-a-strategic-asset-for-the-united-states.html https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palest... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palest... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
- abalone 8y ago
  The United States has never had a problem supporting aggressive states in contravention of international law with a history of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It is itself such a state. From the perspective of U.S. planners there are both costs and benefits to aggressively projecting power over the middle east (and for that matter the rest of the world). You've only identified the costs. You omit the perceived benefits and implicitly exaggerate the influence of a small, (primarily) ethnic domestic lobby. That is like saying the Roman empire was a bad idea because it obviously would lead to collapse--true--but instead of chalking it up to outsized imperialism by the Romans themselves you blame some like Mesopotamian lobbyists for overextending it.
  - Udik 8y ago
    > a history of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It is itself such a state. Well, you tried to score an easy win there. (1) But Israel is engaging in such oppression now, we're not talking about a remote past. We're talking about very public and vociferous support for the very public actions of a democratic state- a state on whose policies the citizens have control through democratic elections and knowledge through public opinion. > aggressively projecting power It's the third time you use the expression "projecting power" in a handwavy fashion, without explaining what you mean in detail. I've linked in my previous comment the opinion of a former US ambassador, arguing that this supposed "power projection" amounts to nil. I was expecting some counter-arguments. I'll paste an excerpt here: "It's useful to recall what we generally expect allies and strategic partners to do for us. In Europe, Asia, and elsewhere in the Middle East, they provide bases and support the projection of American power beyond their borders. They join us on the battlefield in places like Kuwait and Afghanistan or underwrite the costs of our military operations. They help recruit others to our coalitions. They coordinate their foreign aid with ours. Many defray the costs of our use of their facilities with "host nation support" that reduces the costs of our military operations from and through their territory. They store weapons for our troops', rather than their own troops', use. They pay cash for the weapons we transfer to them. Israel does none of things and shows no interest in doing them. Perhaps it can't. It is so estranged from everyone else in the Middle East that no neighboring country will accept flight plans that originate in or transit it. Israel is therefore useless in terms of support for American power projection." - 1- As an aside, I understand that there might be a fundamental contradiction in the minds of the freedom and independence-loving Americans: while they repeal and condemn ethnic cleansing and oppression of native populations by superior force, they also somehow must accept its eventual historical outcome, as they are themselves that outcome.

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Udik 8y ago

> The idea ... is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. And yet it's what any other lobby does. Let's just clear a first point: the lobby exists. It has websites: https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/ And it's not just made of "ethnic jews": https://www.cufi.org/ https://www.cufi.org/ As for the strategic interest, it might have been obvious at the beginning of Israel, now not so much. Let me remind you that Israel is an aggressive state in contravention of international law since many decades, with a history of ethnic cleansing [1] and apartheid [2], and that such practices are drivers of instability and violence in the region, and that supporting and defending them has a political and military cost. The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "war on terror" were part of this costs, as stated clearly by the perpetrators of the attacks. [3] Have a read of this article by a former US ambassador in the region, that discusses the reality of the strategic value and "US power projection" provided by Israel to the US: https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-the-big-lie-that-israel-is-a-strategic-asset-for-the-united-states.html https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palest... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palest... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

abalone 8y ago
The United States has never had a problem supporting aggressive states in contravention of international law with a history of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It is itself such a state. From the perspective of U.S. planners there are both costs and benefits to aggressively projecting power over the middle east (and for that matter the rest of the world). You've only identified the costs. You omit the perceived benefits and implicitly exaggerate the influence of a small, (primarily) ethnic domestic lobby. That is like saying the Roman empire was a bad idea because it obviously would lead to collapse--true--but instead of chalking it up to outsized imperialism by the Romans themselves you blame some like Mesopotamian lobbyists for overextending it.
- Udik 8y ago
  > a history of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It is itself such a state. Well, you tried to score an easy win there. (1) But Israel is engaging in such oppression now, we're not talking about a remote past. We're talking about very public and vociferous support for the very public actions of a democratic state- a state on whose policies the citizens have control through democratic elections and knowledge through public opinion. > aggressively projecting power It's the third time you use the expression "projecting power" in a handwavy fashion, without explaining what you mean in detail. I've linked in my previous comment the opinion of a former US ambassador, arguing that this supposed "power projection" amounts to nil. I was expecting some counter-arguments. I'll paste an excerpt here: "It's useful to recall what we generally expect allies and strategic partners to do for us. In Europe, Asia, and elsewhere in the Middle East, they provide bases and support the projection of American power beyond their borders. They join us on the battlefield in places like Kuwait and Afghanistan or underwrite the costs of our military operations. They help recruit others to our coalitions. They coordinate their foreign aid with ours. Many defray the costs of our use of their facilities with "host nation support" that reduces the costs of our military operations from and through their territory. They store weapons for our troops', rather than their own troops', use. They pay cash for the weapons we transfer to them. Israel does none of things and shows no interest in doing them. Perhaps it can't. It is so estranged from everyone else in the Middle East that no neighboring country will accept flight plans that originate in or transit it. Israel is therefore useless in terms of support for American power projection." - 1- As an aside, I understand that there might be a fundamental contradiction in the minds of the freedom and independence-loving Americans: while they repeal and condemn ethnic cleansing and oppression of native populations by superior force, they also somehow must accept its eventual historical outcome, as they are themselves that outcome.