6 ms·

> You’re saying that children basically barely out of high school need to make decisions that are very high cost and impact the rest of their lives, then held a

> You’re saying that children basically barely out of high school need to make decisions that are very high cost and impact the rest of their lives, then held accountable for them when they make a mistake. Perhaps I am too German to understand this problem, since in Germany, nearly every child is taught by their parents that you should only go into debt if you have really, really good reasons (i.e. almost never, except perhaps for buying a house/flat; and in this case it is a mortgage and not a credit). I believe this is really sound financial advice. > Blaming kids for choosing the wrong college is just a symptom of a broken system. Blame just doesn’t work. I think it is right to blame children for ignoring the IMHO sound financial advice (almost) never to take any credit.

landryraccoon 8y ago
How much did college cost in Germany? School, like healthcare, is exhorbitantly expensive in the United States.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  Not every college is free in Germany.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > How much did college cost in Germany? Most universities in Germany are public and thus quite cheap. But note that while they are quite good in terms of quality of education, there is hardly any handholding offered. Many Germans say that this is two birds with one stone: 1. Mostly free tertiary education 2. Students learn a lot of self-responsibility So it is a very different system from the one in the US. So it makes much more sense to compare US universities with the few private universities in Germany. Under https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19139246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19139246 I wrote something about that topic. TLDR: If a university does not make an offer that you can pay off your "tuition" by a fixed amount of the salary that you earn in the next 10-15 years after graduating, you should be wary, since this shows that the university does not believe that its respective course of studies will (in average) give a decent salary to its graduates.
  - landryraccoon 8y ago
    > If a university does not make an offer that you can pay off your "tuition" by a fixed amount of the salary that you earn in the next 10-15 years after graduating, you should be wary, since this shows that the university does not believe that its respective course of studies will (in average) give a decent salary to its graduates. I don't know of a single US university that offers this guarantee...
skh 8y ago
There's definitely a cultural difference when it come to debt between Americans and Germans. I dated a German woman for a number of years. In 2010 when my house was worth less than the loan I had on it I walked away from the loan. It was a strategic default. My girlfriend just couldn't understand the concept.
maxxxxx 8y ago
"Perhaps I am too German to understand this problem, since in Germany, nearly every child is taught by their parents that you should only go into debt if you have really, really good reasons (i.e. almost never, except perhaps for buying a house/flat; and in this case it is a mortgage and not a credit)." In Germany you typically don't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for your education like in the US. If you don't have well-off parents you pretty much have to go into debt.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > In Germany you typically don't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for your education like in the US. If you don't have well-off parents you pretty much have to go into debt. Indeed there exist good public universities in Germany that are rather cheap and most students attend them. But there also exist private universities. At these, usually there is choice: you can either pay your student fees regularly or if you can't or don't want to, there is also the offer that you study "for free" and after you graduate, you pay some agreed percentage of your (future) salary for, say, 10 years after graduating. I personally believe that markets are rather efficient. So to every prospective student, it should be a strong warning sign when a (private) university does not offer that you study "for free" and can pay off your "virtual tuition" by some share of your future salary for the next 10-15 years after gradutating, since this shows that the university does not believe that it offers a course of studies that will (in average) give a decent salary to its graduates (otherwise, it would make (financial) sense for the university to make such an offer).
  - iguy 8y ago
    That's great, I didn't know this existed in Germany. How do the contracts work, e.g. what happens if you are declared bankrupt at 25, or leave the country (or the EU)? Can you say more about how the payments are calculated? And do you know what the implied interest rates look like on such loans (assuming you end up paying)?
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      Sorry that I don't know the details. But here is a list of the private institutions of higher education (private Hochschulen; note that the term "Hochschulen" is hard to translate into English since the term "Hochschule" also includes "Fachhochschulen" - a very German kind of higher education): > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Hochschulen_in_Deutschland&oldid=184979331 https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Ho... You are probably mostly interested in the private institutions of higher education with a right to award doctorates: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Hochschulen_in_Deutschland&oldid=184979331#Mit_Promotionsrecht https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Ho... For example for Bucerius Law School, you can find: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bucerius_Law_School&oldid=183706660#Finanzierung https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bucerius_Law_Scho... "Die Hochschule bietet einen umgekehrten Generationenvertrag (UGV) an, der es Studierenden ermöglicht, zunächst ohne Gebühren zu studieren, wenn sie sich verpflichten, nach dem Eintritt in das Berufsleben 10 Jahre lang jährlich 9 % des Einkommens an die Hochschule zu zahlen, maximal das Doppelte der regulären Studiengebühren plus Basiszinssatz." "The institution of higher education offers an reverse inter-generational contract which enables students initially to study without tuition fees if they pledge themselves after entering the workforce for 10 years yearly 9% of their income [the clause order in German is much more free than in English; if I translated it into proper English, it would be incomprehensible] to the institution of higher education; at a maximum double the regular tuition fees plus basic rate of interest". German Wikipedia page for "Umgekehrter Generationenvertrag (UGV)" (reverse inter-generational contract): > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Umgekehrter_Generationenvertrag&oldid=180910166 https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Umgekehrter_Gener... Also Universität Witten/Herdecke offers a reverse inter-generational contract: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universit%C3%A4t_Witten/Herdecke&oldid=183316350#Finanzierung https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universit%C3%A4t_... "Als private Universität finanziert sich die Hochschule aus Studienbeiträgen, Spenden und Fördermitteln.[31] Die StudierendenGesellschaft Witten/Herdecke, ein von Studierenden geführter, gemeinnütziger Verein, organisiert seit 1995 die elternunabhängige und sozialverträgliche Finanzierung des Studiums anhand des Umgekehrten Generationenvertrags." (I will not translate this, since it is just the relevant quote for what I wrote in English). Also WHU – Otto Beisheim School of Management makes such an offer: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHU_%E2%80%93_Otto_Beisheim_School_of_Management&oldid=184884927#Stipendiaten https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHU_%E2%80%93_Ott... > https://www.whu.edu/de/programme/bachelor-programm/gebuehren-finanzierung/ https://www.whu.edu/de/programme/bachelor-programm/gebuehren...
astura 8y ago
Lifelong consumer debt (mortgage, car payment, credit cards, medical debt) is pretty normalized in the US. Even stuff like taking equity out of a house to, say, go on vacation isn't considered shocking.

landryraccoon 8y ago

How much did college cost in Germany? School, like healthcare, is exhorbitantly expensive in the United States.

Mirioron 8y ago
Not every college is free in Germany.
wolfgke 8y ago
> How much did college cost in Germany? Most universities in Germany are public and thus quite cheap. But note that while they are quite good in terms of quality of education, there is hardly any handholding offered. Many Germans say that this is two birds with one stone: 1. Mostly free tertiary education 2. Students learn a lot of self-responsibility So it is a very different system from the one in the US. So it makes much more sense to compare US universities with the few private universities in Germany. Under https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19139246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19139246 I wrote something about that topic. TLDR: If a university does not make an offer that you can pay off your "tuition" by a fixed amount of the salary that you earn in the next 10-15 years after graduating, you should be wary, since this shows that the university does not believe that its respective course of studies will (in average) give a decent salary to its graduates.
- landryraccoon 8y ago
  > If a university does not make an offer that you can pay off your "tuition" by a fixed amount of the salary that you earn in the next 10-15 years after graduating, you should be wary, since this shows that the university does not believe that its respective course of studies will (in average) give a decent salary to its graduates. I don't know of a single US university that offers this guarantee...

skh 8y ago

There's definitely a cultural difference when it come to debt between Americans and Germans. I dated a German woman for a number of years. In 2010 when my house was worth less than the loan I had on it I walked away from the loan. It was a strategic default. My girlfriend just couldn't understand the concept.

maxxxxx 8y ago

"Perhaps I am too German to understand this problem, since in Germany, nearly every child is taught by their parents that you should only go into debt if you have really, really good reasons (i.e. almost never, except perhaps for buying a house/flat; and in this case it is a mortgage and not a credit)." In Germany you typically don't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for your education like in the US. If you don't have well-off parents you pretty much have to go into debt.

wolfgke 8y ago
> In Germany you typically don't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for your education like in the US. If you don't have well-off parents you pretty much have to go into debt. Indeed there exist good public universities in Germany that are rather cheap and most students attend them. But there also exist private universities. At these, usually there is choice: you can either pay your student fees regularly or if you can't or don't want to, there is also the offer that you study "for free" and after you graduate, you pay some agreed percentage of your (future) salary for, say, 10 years after graduating. I personally believe that markets are rather efficient. So to every prospective student, it should be a strong warning sign when a (private) university does not offer that you study "for free" and can pay off your "virtual tuition" by some share of your future salary for the next 10-15 years after gradutating, since this shows that the university does not believe that it offers a course of studies that will (in average) give a decent salary to its graduates (otherwise, it would make (financial) sense for the university to make such an offer).
- iguy 8y ago
  That's great, I didn't know this existed in Germany. How do the contracts work, e.g. what happens if you are declared bankrupt at 25, or leave the country (or the EU)? Can you say more about how the payments are calculated? And do you know what the implied interest rates look like on such loans (assuming you end up paying)?
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    Sorry that I don't know the details. But here is a list of the private institutions of higher education (private Hochschulen; note that the term "Hochschulen" is hard to translate into English since the term "Hochschule" also includes "Fachhochschulen" - a very German kind of higher education): > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Hochschulen_in_Deutschland&oldid=184979331 https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Ho... You are probably mostly interested in the private institutions of higher education with a right to award doctorates: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Hochschulen_in_Deutschland&oldid=184979331#Mit_Promotionsrecht https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_privater_Ho... For example for Bucerius Law School, you can find: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bucerius_Law_School&oldid=183706660#Finanzierung https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bucerius_Law_Scho... "Die Hochschule bietet einen umgekehrten Generationenvertrag (UGV) an, der es Studierenden ermöglicht, zunächst ohne Gebühren zu studieren, wenn sie sich verpflichten, nach dem Eintritt in das Berufsleben 10 Jahre lang jährlich 9 % des Einkommens an die Hochschule zu zahlen, maximal das Doppelte der regulären Studiengebühren plus Basiszinssatz." "The institution of higher education offers an reverse inter-generational contract which enables students initially to study without tuition fees if they pledge themselves after entering the workforce for 10 years yearly 9% of their income [the clause order in German is much more free than in English; if I translated it into proper English, it would be incomprehensible] to the institution of higher education; at a maximum double the regular tuition fees plus basic rate of interest". German Wikipedia page for "Umgekehrter Generationenvertrag (UGV)" (reverse inter-generational contract): > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Umgekehrter_Generationenvertrag&oldid=180910166 https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Umgekehrter_Gener... Also Universität Witten/Herdecke offers a reverse inter-generational contract: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universit%C3%A4t_Witten/Herdecke&oldid=183316350#Finanzierung https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universit%C3%A4t_... "Als private Universität finanziert sich die Hochschule aus Studienbeiträgen, Spenden und Fördermitteln.[31] Die StudierendenGesellschaft Witten/Herdecke, ein von Studierenden geführter, gemeinnütziger Verein, organisiert seit 1995 die elternunabhängige und sozialverträgliche Finanzierung des Studiums anhand des Umgekehrten Generationenvertrags." (I will not translate this, since it is just the relevant quote for what I wrote in English). Also WHU – Otto Beisheim School of Management makes such an offer: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHU_%E2%80%93_Otto_Beisheim_School_of_Management&oldid=184884927#Stipendiaten https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHU_%E2%80%93_Ott... > https://www.whu.edu/de/programme/bachelor-programm/gebuehren-finanzierung/ https://www.whu.edu/de/programme/bachelor-programm/gebuehren...

astura 8y ago

Lifelong consumer debt (mortgage, car payment, credit cards, medical debt) is pretty normalized in the US. Even stuff like taking equity out of a house to, say, go on vacation isn't considered shocking.