3 ms·

There's a difference that's important to understand. U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "I

There's a difference that's important to understand. U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with: namely, to have a strong Western-aligned military ally to project power over the region. For comparison, Russia is nothing like that kind of client state ally, and support for their meddling is a fairly recent and specific case and not likely to last.

Udik 8y ago
> U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with A successful lobby will of course convince its targets- politicians, but the entire public opinion when necessary- that its objectives coincide with their objectives. Mearsheimer and Walt, in their famous "the Israel lobby" argued that "no [other] lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical". In fact, have you ever thought exactly how would the interests of Israel coincide with those of the US?
- abalone 8y ago
  The idea that an "all-powerful small ethnic Jewish lobby" can trick the corporate elite of America for decades to do things against their interests is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. It is a way of deflecting blame away from the U.S. government itself.[1] The strategic interests are obvious: Israel is one of the largest military powers in the middle east and a means to project U.S. power over it. This was observed by the Pentagon as early as the late 1940s.[2] This is why the U.S. has given so much financial, military and diplomatic aid to Israel, one of the effects of which has been to build up its tech industry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Udik 8y ago
    > The idea ... is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. And yet it's what any other lobby does. Let's just clear a first point: the lobby exists. It has websites: https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/ And it's not just made of "ethnic jews": https://www.cufi.org/ https://www.cufi.org/ As for the strategic interest, it might have been obvious at the beginning of Israel, now not so much. Let me remind you that Israel is an aggressive state in contravention of international law since many decades, with a history of ethnic cleansing [1] and apartheid [2], and that such practices are drivers of instability and violence in the region, and that supporting and defending them has a political and military cost. The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "war on terror" were part of this costs, as stated clearly by the perpetrators of the attacks. [3] Have a read of this article by a former US ambassador in the region, that discusses the reality of the strategic value and "US power projection" provided by Israel to the US: https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-the-big-lie-that-israel-is-a-strategic-asset-for-the-united-states.html https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palest... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palest... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
    - abalone 8y ago
      The United States has never had a problem supporting aggressive states in contravention of international law with a history of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It is itself such a state. From the perspective of U.S. planners there are both costs and benefits to aggressively projecting power over the middle east (and for that matter the rest of the world). You've only identified the costs. You omit the perceived benefits and implicitly exaggerate the influence of a small, (primarily) ethnic domestic lobby. That is like saying the Roman empire was a bad idea because it obviously would lead to collapse--true--but instead of chalking it up to outsized imperialism by the Romans themselves you blame some like Mesopotamian lobbyists for overextending it.

Udik 8y ago

> U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with A successful lobby will of course convince its targets- politicians, but the entire public opinion when necessary- that its objectives coincide with their objectives. Mearsheimer and Walt, in their famous "the Israel lobby" argued that "no [other] lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical". In fact, have you ever thought exactly how would the interests of Israel coincide with those of the US?

abalone 8y ago
The idea that an "all-powerful small ethnic Jewish lobby" can trick the corporate elite of America for decades to do things against their interests is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. It is a way of deflecting blame away from the U.S. government itself.[1] The strategic interests are obvious: Israel is one of the largest military powers in the middle east and a means to project U.S. power over it. This was observed by the Pentagon as early as the late 1940s.[2] This is why the U.S. has given so much financial, military and diplomatic aid to Israel, one of the effects of which has been to build up its tech industry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Udik 8y ago
  > The idea ... is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. And yet it's what any other lobby does. Let's just clear a first point: the lobby exists. It has websites: https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/ And it's not just made of "ethnic jews": https://www.cufi.org/ https://www.cufi.org/ As for the strategic interest, it might have been obvious at the beginning of Israel, now not so much. Let me remind you that Israel is an aggressive state in contravention of international law since many decades, with a history of ethnic cleansing [1] and apartheid [2], and that such practices are drivers of instability and violence in the region, and that supporting and defending them has a political and military cost. The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "war on terror" were part of this costs, as stated clearly by the perpetrators of the attacks. [3] Have a read of this article by a former US ambassador in the region, that discusses the reality of the strategic value and "US power projection" provided by Israel to the US: https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-the-big-lie-that-israel-is-a-strategic-asset-for-the-united-states.html https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palest... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palest... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
  - abalone 8y ago
    The United States has never had a problem supporting aggressive states in contravention of international law with a history of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It is itself such a state. From the perspective of U.S. planners there are both costs and benefits to aggressively projecting power over the middle east (and for that matter the rest of the world). You've only identified the costs. You omit the perceived benefits and implicitly exaggerate the influence of a small, (primarily) ethnic domestic lobby. That is like saying the Roman empire was a bad idea because it obviously would lead to collapse--true--but instead of chalking it up to outsized imperialism by the Romans themselves you blame some like Mesopotamian lobbyists for overextending it.