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You may find this short article interesting: https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too

You may find this short article interesting: https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/ We Were Pirates, Too Why America was the China of the 19th century.

_iyig 8y ago
In the summer of 1812, when Francis Cabot Lowell stole the plans for textile weaving machines as described in the article, the U.S. and Great Britain were two nations at war (or on the cusp, depending on the month). I notice this detail often left out when this story is used to excuse theft of U.S. research and development output. Stealing the fruits of another’s investment is not the act of a friend or ally.
- posterboy 8y ago
  With the last remark, you are either saying that China and USA are not friends, or that IP theft is not theft. Either way, the comparison falls flat trivially, because the looms of today are gigantic production plants. Stealing cad files is rather like stealing a weaving pattern ... which I hear is a thing and an old example of copyright infringement.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    "China and USA are not friends" and "IP theft is not theft" both happen to be at least somewhat true.
  - gbear605 8y ago
    China and the USA should not be friends. China is committing mass genocide and is overall a horrible country. The USA definitely has some problems, but nowhere near the same level. Americans should encourage the USA to not be friendly toward China. Similarly, people in other countries should ask the same of their governments. Of course, that doesn’t justify any racism or hatred toward individual Chinese people, especially immigrants who have had no role at all in causing this. It’s a moral obligation to be good to other people, and this includes making sure that other people do not commit genocide.
    - Waterfall 8y ago
      What genocide? America has funded many proxy wars (the mess in the middle east and fuels the constant with aid to both sides of the israeli/palestinian conflict) and China is actually modernizing africa instead of putting in banana republics. It is no more moral than China.
      - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
        China is mass imprisoning, torturing and murdering Uyghur people[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...
chillacy 8y ago
I find discussion on IP theft that spends too much time moralizing to be an ineffective argument, in part because of the hypocrisy, but also because it probably won't work on people with completely different values. If we accept that we are Britain in the 1800s, and that we enjoy certain benefits to being the reserve currency of the world, then the question becomes, what strategically can the US do to remain the dominant player in the world? Can transfer of technology know-how be stopped, given the changes in the world since 1800? If anything information is more available than ever, so it seems like a losing battle. What about a show of force, like the Opium War forced Beijing to open its markets? Tricky as well, on one hand.. nuclear war. On the other hand, that power disparity continues to narrow over time, if there were a time to risk it all it would be now. I'm sure there are other strategies out there as well, but those are two that come to mind.
- eloff 8y ago
  Or instead of risking nuclear war, where there are no winners, only losers - just accept that things change and you can't be top dog forever. That said, I don't actually think China will replace the US as top dog. It's growing faster yes, but has serious Japan-like demographic problems fast approaching. The thing about demographic problems is they're predictable and almost impossible to escape. In absolute dollar value terms, the US is still competitive with China, which means they'll likely never close that gap before their demographics catch up with them.
  - vtange 8y ago
    Top dogs will always try to stay top dog for as long as possible and they are willing. It is what people would naturally do even if the stage was a video game, or if they were fighting for civil rights. Some people tend not to just "know their place."
    - eloff 8y ago
      I fully agree that it goes against human nature and history. However, it has to go against those things. We live in an age of weapons so terrible that the kind of global conflict that defined the first half of the twentieth century must just never happen again because the consequences would be truly unthinkable. Advanced civilization is a fragile thing. We gain a lot of efficiency from extreme specialization - but we also lose a lot of resiliency. A global nuclear war would end civilization as we know it, and who knows how long it would take to recover - especially with the easily accessible resources already consumed. That's not to say that it won't happen - but we shouldn't permit it, or support those who would.
vanderZwan 8y ago
Philips did a similar thing regarding light bulbs. Edison was strangling the market through patents, the Netherlands didn't care about patents, and everyone who wanted to work on light bulbs but did not want to work for Edison (like, say, the small competitors run out of business by him) flocked to Philips. They quickly had the best and cheapest light bulbs in the world. Well, until planned obsolescence kicked in.

_iyig 8y ago

In the summer of 1812, when Francis Cabot Lowell stole the plans for textile weaving machines as described in the article, the U.S. and Great Britain were two nations at war (or on the cusp, depending on the month). I notice this detail often left out when this story is used to excuse theft of U.S. research and development output. Stealing the fruits of another’s investment is not the act of a friend or ally.

posterboy 8y ago
With the last remark, you are either saying that China and USA are not friends, or that IP theft is not theft. Either way, the comparison falls flat trivially, because the looms of today are gigantic production plants. Stealing cad files is rather like stealing a weaving pattern ... which I hear is a thing and an old example of copyright infringement.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  "China and USA are not friends" and "IP theft is not theft" both happen to be at least somewhat true.
- gbear605 8y ago
  China and the USA should not be friends. China is committing mass genocide and is overall a horrible country. The USA definitely has some problems, but nowhere near the same level. Americans should encourage the USA to not be friendly toward China. Similarly, people in other countries should ask the same of their governments. Of course, that doesn’t justify any racism or hatred toward individual Chinese people, especially immigrants who have had no role at all in causing this. It’s a moral obligation to be good to other people, and this includes making sure that other people do not commit genocide.
  - Waterfall 8y ago
    What genocide? America has funded many proxy wars (the mess in the middle east and fuels the constant with aid to both sides of the israeli/palestinian conflict) and China is actually modernizing africa instead of putting in banana republics. It is no more moral than China.
    - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
      China is mass imprisoning, torturing and murdering Uyghur people[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...

chillacy 8y ago

I find discussion on IP theft that spends too much time moralizing to be an ineffective argument, in part because of the hypocrisy, but also because it probably won't work on people with completely different values. If we accept that we are Britain in the 1800s, and that we enjoy certain benefits to being the reserve currency of the world, then the question becomes, what strategically can the US do to remain the dominant player in the world? Can transfer of technology know-how be stopped, given the changes in the world since 1800? If anything information is more available than ever, so it seems like a losing battle. What about a show of force, like the Opium War forced Beijing to open its markets? Tricky as well, on one hand.. nuclear war. On the other hand, that power disparity continues to narrow over time, if there were a time to risk it all it would be now. I'm sure there are other strategies out there as well, but those are two that come to mind.

eloff 8y ago
Or instead of risking nuclear war, where there are no winners, only losers - just accept that things change and you can't be top dog forever. That said, I don't actually think China will replace the US as top dog. It's growing faster yes, but has serious Japan-like demographic problems fast approaching. The thing about demographic problems is they're predictable and almost impossible to escape. In absolute dollar value terms, the US is still competitive with China, which means they'll likely never close that gap before their demographics catch up with them.
- vtange 8y ago
  Top dogs will always try to stay top dog for as long as possible and they are willing. It is what people would naturally do even if the stage was a video game, or if they were fighting for civil rights. Some people tend not to just "know their place."
  - eloff 8y ago
    I fully agree that it goes against human nature and history. However, it has to go against those things. We live in an age of weapons so terrible that the kind of global conflict that defined the first half of the twentieth century must just never happen again because the consequences would be truly unthinkable. Advanced civilization is a fragile thing. We gain a lot of efficiency from extreme specialization - but we also lose a lot of resiliency. A global nuclear war would end civilization as we know it, and who knows how long it would take to recover - especially with the easily accessible resources already consumed. That's not to say that it won't happen - but we shouldn't permit it, or support those who would.

vanderZwan 8y ago

Philips did a similar thing regarding light bulbs. Edison was strangling the market through patents, the Netherlands didn't care about patents, and everyone who wanted to work on light bulbs but did not want to work for Edison (like, say, the small competitors run out of business by him) flocked to Philips. They quickly had the best and cheapest light bulbs in the world. Well, until planned obsolescence kicked in.