6 ms·

There should be as much outrage over Israeli meddling in domestic politics as there is in Russian meddling in domestic politics. Sure Israel is not a competitor

There should be as much outrage over Israeli meddling in domestic politics as there is in Russian meddling in domestic politics. Sure Israel is not a competitor to the US and so Israel meddling only affects countries, people, or groups not friendly to Israel or Israeli companies supplying tech to dictators, it's still something that should be concerning for affecting the process of democracy and for general world peace.

basementcat 8y ago
Israel is considered a "Designated Country of Missile Technology Concern" according to the Department of Commerce. https://oiir.hq.nasa.gov/nasaecp/docs/DCList_10-24-2018.pdf https://oiir.hq.nasa.gov/nasaecp/docs/DCList_10-24-2018.pdf
DSingularity 8y ago
It’s starting to happen. As much as we think otherwise — the outrage doesn’t spontaneously manifest. It begins as more and more of the independent voices start to pay attention and notice that things are off.
abalone 8y ago
There's a difference that's important to understand. U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with: namely, to have a strong Western-aligned military ally to project power over the region. For comparison, Russia is nothing like that kind of client state ally, and support for their meddling is a fairly recent and specific case and not likely to last.
- Udik 8y ago
  > U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with A successful lobby will of course convince its targets- politicians, but the entire public opinion when necessary- that its objectives coincide with their objectives. Mearsheimer and Walt, in their famous "the Israel lobby" argued that "no [other] lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical". In fact, have you ever thought exactly how would the interests of Israel coincide with those of the US?
  - abalone 8y ago
    The idea that an "all-powerful small ethnic Jewish lobby" can trick the corporate elite of America for decades to do things against their interests is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. It is a way of deflecting blame away from the U.S. government itself.[1] The strategic interests are obvious: Israel is one of the largest military powers in the middle east and a means to project U.S. power over it. This was observed by the Pentagon as early as the late 1940s.[2] This is why the U.S. has given so much financial, military and diplomatic aid to Israel, one of the effects of which has been to build up its tech industry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - Udik 8y ago
      > The idea ... is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. And yet it's what any other lobby does. Let's just clear a first point: the lobby exists. It has websites: https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/ And it's not just made of "ethnic jews": https://www.cufi.org/ https://www.cufi.org/ As for the strategic interest, it might have been obvious at the beginning of Israel, now not so much. Let me remind you that Israel is an aggressive state in contravention of international law since many decades, with a history of ethnic cleansing [1] and apartheid [2], and that such practices are drivers of instability and violence in the region, and that supporting and defending them has a political and military cost. The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "war on terror" were part of this costs, as stated clearly by the perpetrators of the attacks. [3] Have a read of this article by a former US ambassador in the region, that discusses the reality of the strategic value and "US power projection" provided by Israel to the US: https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-the-big-lie-that-israel-is-a-strategic-asset-for-the-united-states.html https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palest... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palest... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

basementcat 8y ago

Israel is considered a "Designated Country of Missile Technology Concern" according to the Department of Commerce. https://oiir.hq.nasa.gov/nasaecp/docs/DCList_10-24-2018.pdf https://oiir.hq.nasa.gov/nasaecp/docs/DCList_10-24-2018.pdf

DSingularity 8y ago

It’s starting to happen. As much as we think otherwise — the outrage doesn’t spontaneously manifest. It begins as more and more of the independent voices start to pay attention and notice that things are off.

abalone 8y ago

There's a difference that's important to understand. U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with: namely, to have a strong Western-aligned military ally to project power over the region. For comparison, Russia is nothing like that kind of client state ally, and support for their meddling is a fairly recent and specific case and not likely to last.

Udik 8y ago
> U.S. support for Israel's aggressive policies is not a result of Israeli "meddling" or even the domestic "Israel lobby". Those things would never be permitted over so many decades if there wasn't a bipartisan U.S. geopolitical objective to begin with A successful lobby will of course convince its targets- politicians, but the entire public opinion when necessary- that its objectives coincide with their objectives. Mearsheimer and Walt, in their famous "the Israel lobby" argued that "no [other] lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical". In fact, have you ever thought exactly how would the interests of Israel coincide with those of the US?
- abalone 8y ago
  The idea that an "all-powerful small ethnic Jewish lobby" can trick the corporate elite of America for decades to do things against their interests is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. It is a way of deflecting blame away from the U.S. government itself.[1] The strategic interests are obvious: Israel is one of the largest military powers in the middle east and a means to project U.S. power over it. This was observed by the Pentagon as early as the late 1940s.[2] This is why the U.S. has given so much financial, military and diplomatic aid to Israel, one of the effects of which has been to build up its tech industry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7c3gOf2_I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Udik 8y ago
    > The idea ... is, putting aside its anti-semitic implications, utterly ridiculous. And yet it's what any other lobby does. Let's just clear a first point: the lobby exists. It has websites: https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/ And it's not just made of "ethnic jews": https://www.cufi.org/ https://www.cufi.org/ As for the strategic interest, it might have been obvious at the beginning of Israel, now not so much. Let me remind you that Israel is an aggressive state in contravention of international law since many decades, with a history of ethnic cleansing [1] and apartheid [2], and that such practices are drivers of instability and violence in the region, and that supporting and defending them has a political and military cost. The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "war on terror" were part of this costs, as stated clearly by the perpetrators of the attacks. [3] Have a read of this article by a former US ambassador in the region, that discusses the reality of the strategic value and "US power projection" provided by Israel to the US: https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-the-big-lie-that-israel-is-a-strategic-asset-for-the-united-states.html https://www.wrmea.org/010-september-october/what-they-said-t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palest... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palest... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver