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> I have yet to see a long term project built with Redux that was maintainable. The only maintainable projects I have worked on in terms of web apps have been

by qudat 8y ago

> I have yet to see a long term project built with Redux that was maintainable. The only maintainable projects I have worked on in terms of web apps have been with Redux. Redux is not great for simple projects, it is great for medium and large scale projects. > All of a sudden something stops working because someone removes a component that is dispatching on a timed interval etc. That's the problem: react and redux are not enough for large projects, you also need a way to manage side-effects. Incorporating `redux-saga` would fit that purpose. React, redux, redux-saga -> this is the recipe for large scale applications that I have used, built, and helped maintain with success. One of the strongest benefits of redux is being able to see every single event in a debugger that displays current state, action payload, next state. It really does make tracking down state changes a matter of reading a global log. Furthermore, because redux is not dependent on react and under the hood it is simply and event emitter, it becomes relatively easy to use the same exact business logic for one web app and use it for some other delivery. We did this at my last company: because our business logic was based on redux and completely separate from the UI layer: we were able to build: a cli, chrome extension, outlook plugin, and mobile apps using the same exact business logic.

kerkeslager 8y ago
> Redux is not great for simple projects, it is great for medium and large scale projects. I'd say that the only times I've seen Redux work effectively at all is when the project was small enough that the complexity remained manageable. > > All of a sudden something stops working because someone removes a component that is dispatching on a timed interval etc. > That's the problem: react and redux are not enough for large projects, you also need a way to manage side-effects. Incorporating `redux-saga` would fit that purpose. I don't need a way to manage side-effects, if I don't use Redux... I'll admit I haven't used Redux-Saga, but you'll excuse me being skeptical that introducing more complex tools will solve my complexity problem. > We did this at my last company: because our business logic was based on redux and completely separate from the UI layer: we were able to build: a cli, chrome extension, outlook plugin, and mobile apps using the same exact business logic. Again, this is not unique to Redux. It's perfectly possible to have your business logic completely separate from the UI layer without Redux. In fact, my experience is that Redux tends to cause devs to mix UI logic into business logic (and any sufficiently complex UI will have its own state and logic separate from the business logic).
- korm 8y ago
  > but you'll excuse me being skeptical that introducing more complex tools will solve my complexity problem I'm a consultant and in my experience this misconception is by far the most common source of problems in redux projects. Redux is a very small and simple thing so you have to build a framework around it. Even redux-thunk isn't enough - that's only 5 lines of code. I wouldn't recommend react/redux for public facing sites if there's no experienced, pure frontend team. A more batteries-included kind of framework would be better. There's a lot of thinking to do and hardcore levels of scaffolding to maintain before writing anything useful and maintainable with redux. But it can absolutely lead to maintainable applications. Also, I've never seen any homegrown "vanilla" frameworks or data stores work well as complexity increases. It usually ends up as spaghetti, especially with a growing team + growing business demands. Or best case a poor re-invention of the wheel. There must be brilliant counter examples but they're probably rare, I may never have the pleasure of working with one.
  - acemarke 8y ago
    Hi, I'm a Redux maintainer. FWIW, we've got a new Redux Starter kit package that tries to be a bit more "batteries included". It includes utilities that help simplify several common use cases, including store setup, defining reducers, immutable update logic, and even creating entire "slices" of state automatically. It also includes `redux-thunk` built in, as well as some middleware that check for things like mutations. Please try it out and let us know what you think! https://redux-starter-kit.js.org https://redux-starter-kit.js.org
    - korm 8y ago
      Thanks, this is incredibly useful, I use everything in this package! It also doesn't deviate from the spirit of Redux or abstract too much, like rematch for example. Without something like this, I find that many people structure their entire Redux code based on simple tutorials. They typically only read the docs or worry about best practices and complexity after they encounter problems. This kit will have them start off on the right foot.
deleted 8y ago
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by qudat 8y ago

kerkeslager 8y ago

> Redux is not great for simple projects, it is great for medium and large scale projects. I'd say that the only times I've seen Redux work effectively at all is when the project was small enough that the complexity remained manageable. > > All of a sudden something stops working because someone removes a component that is dispatching on a timed interval etc. > That's the problem: react and redux are not enough for large projects, you also need a way to manage side-effects. Incorporating `redux-saga` would fit that purpose. I don't need a way to manage side-effects, if I don't use Redux... I'll admit I haven't used Redux-Saga, but you'll excuse me being skeptical that introducing more complex tools will solve my complexity problem. > We did this at my last company: because our business logic was based on redux and completely separate from the UI layer: we were able to build: a cli, chrome extension, outlook plugin, and mobile apps using the same exact business logic. Again, this is not unique to Redux. It's perfectly possible to have your business logic completely separate from the UI layer without Redux. In fact, my experience is that Redux tends to cause devs to mix UI logic into business logic (and any sufficiently complex UI will have its own state and logic separate from the business logic).

korm 8y ago
> but you'll excuse me being skeptical that introducing more complex tools will solve my complexity problem I'm a consultant and in my experience this misconception is by far the most common source of problems in redux projects. Redux is a very small and simple thing so you have to build a framework around it. Even redux-thunk isn't enough - that's only 5 lines of code. I wouldn't recommend react/redux for public facing sites if there's no experienced, pure frontend team. A more batteries-included kind of framework would be better. There's a lot of thinking to do and hardcore levels of scaffolding to maintain before writing anything useful and maintainable with redux. But it can absolutely lead to maintainable applications. Also, I've never seen any homegrown "vanilla" frameworks or data stores work well as complexity increases. It usually ends up as spaghetti, especially with a growing team + growing business demands. Or best case a poor re-invention of the wheel. There must be brilliant counter examples but they're probably rare, I may never have the pleasure of working with one.
- acemarke 8y ago
  Hi, I'm a Redux maintainer. FWIW, we've got a new Redux Starter kit package that tries to be a bit more "batteries included". It includes utilities that help simplify several common use cases, including store setup, defining reducers, immutable update logic, and even creating entire "slices" of state automatically. It also includes `redux-thunk` built in, as well as some middleware that check for things like mutations. Please try it out and let us know what you think! https://redux-starter-kit.js.org https://redux-starter-kit.js.org
  - korm 8y ago
    Thanks, this is incredibly useful, I use everything in this package! It also doesn't deviate from the spirit of Redux or abstract too much, like rematch for example. Without something like this, I find that many people structure their entire Redux code based on simple tutorials. They typically only read the docs or worry about best practices and complexity after they encounter problems. This kit will have them start off on the right foot.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]