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it's just as much your responsibility as it is theirs to insist on ethical standards engineers don't get to go around running saying "i was gonna put some basi

it's just as much your responsibility as it is theirs to insist on ethical standards engineers don't get to go around running saying "i was gonna put some basic safety procedures in there, but they just wouldn't pay for it" you make them pay for it

dentemple 8y ago
Yeah, it doesn't work that way. It takes time to meet compliance standards, and when it comes to items like color choice, often you're against client-selected requests. I can either 1) keep pissing into the wind only to eventually be put through the grueling algorithms grind of job-searching again... Or 2) keep firmly pressing for better standards, but still do what I'm told to do.
- madhadron 8y ago
  This is part of what a legally protected engineering title does. When you stamp something as a professional engineer, you are saying that it meets all applicable codes. That is a legal statement, and to do otherwise would be fraudulent. If you have a professional association that dictates this and has restraint of trade in place so only a member of the professional association can do it, then it's not even pushing back. It's a flat statement: "You have to do it this way or you can't have it stamped."
  - dentemple 8y ago
    I'd be on board with that if it doesn't exclude non-degree holders from working in web development.
ForHackernews 8y ago
This is one of many reasons I keep trying to stress that software "engineers" are not engineers. Writing software is wage labor, not a profession. The sooner we come to terms with our situation, the sooner we can work to better it.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  This is really why we need to form a professional association of some sort - it'll allow for some level of responsibility in what developers produce, as well as help guarantee a certain standard of product. It will also ensure that the we don't have to worry about the market being flooded with cheap labour that every big business and government entity seems interested in creating. I understand that doesn't sound great right now given that software development is a comparative goldmine to a lot of other jobs, but compared to other professions we could stand to become more formalized.
  - axaxs 8y ago
    That can't happen because there's no formal qualifications to calling yourself a software engineer. I've worked with people hired as software engineers who just took an X week online course, and it shows. Now, if you're talking about solving the above first, I'm enthusiastically all ears..
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      In Canada most software devs don't call ourselves engineers - we legally can't - engineer is a protected title. And yes, that's what I'm suggesting - there needs to be a formalization of terms for software. I'm not saying exclude the X week course individuals, but in Accounting there are "tiers" of accountant, based upon education, focus, and experience, and that may need to be instituted, allowing people to see at a glance what designation you've achieved, even if that means the bootcamp grad has to write a 50 question test at the end of their X weeks. I know, I know, pipe dreams.
      - 52-6F-62 8y ago
        Engineer isn't a unilaterally protected title here. There's plenty of people and jobs titled Software Engineer (or QA Engineer, or Site Reliability Engineer, etc). You can't misrepresent yourself as a P. Eng. however. Here in Ontario, PEO will probably nail you for it: http://www.peo.on.ca/ http://www.peo.on.ca/ Though from what I understand they frown on it because they want complete ownership of the term (but their critique really has no teeth unless you make like you are indeed licensed by a central regulatory body such as PEO): http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm edit: Just some further information on the subject in Canada—Software Engineer (among others) is a nationally recognized and distinct title (can overlap, but doesn't necessitate a P.Eng certification): http://noc.esdc.gc.ca/English/noc/ProfileQuickSearch.aspx?val=2&val1=2173&ver=16&val65=software%20engineer http://noc.esdc.gc.ca/English/noc/ProfileQuickSearch.aspx?va...
SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
Have you had luck in this endeavour? As it stands most software devs aren't actually engineers and as such are held to no ethical standard, nor have the (professionally certified) credibility behind their words to demand specific design standards.
folkrav 8y ago
Software engineers, unless they literally went through a b. eng., are not engineers, despite calling themselves that. Most software/web developers are just wage workers. "You make them pay", you being who exactly? The employee that gets a list of requirements and a deadline? These places are filled with juniors with relatively low experience. If their bosses tell them to do something, they'll do that thing, and don't have much leverage to argue.

dentemple 8y ago

Yeah, it doesn't work that way. It takes time to meet compliance standards, and when it comes to items like color choice, often you're against client-selected requests. I can either 1) keep pissing into the wind only to eventually be put through the grueling algorithms grind of job-searching again... Or 2) keep firmly pressing for better standards, but still do what I'm told to do.

madhadron 8y ago
This is part of what a legally protected engineering title does. When you stamp something as a professional engineer, you are saying that it meets all applicable codes. That is a legal statement, and to do otherwise would be fraudulent. If you have a professional association that dictates this and has restraint of trade in place so only a member of the professional association can do it, then it's not even pushing back. It's a flat statement: "You have to do it this way or you can't have it stamped."
- dentemple 8y ago
  I'd be on board with that if it doesn't exclude non-degree holders from working in web development.

ForHackernews 8y ago

This is one of many reasons I keep trying to stress that software "engineers" are not engineers. Writing software is wage labor, not a profession. The sooner we come to terms with our situation, the sooner we can work to better it.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
This is really why we need to form a professional association of some sort - it'll allow for some level of responsibility in what developers produce, as well as help guarantee a certain standard of product. It will also ensure that the we don't have to worry about the market being flooded with cheap labour that every big business and government entity seems interested in creating. I understand that doesn't sound great right now given that software development is a comparative goldmine to a lot of other jobs, but compared to other professions we could stand to become more formalized.
- axaxs 8y ago
  That can't happen because there's no formal qualifications to calling yourself a software engineer. I've worked with people hired as software engineers who just took an X week online course, and it shows. Now, if you're talking about solving the above first, I'm enthusiastically all ears..
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    In Canada most software devs don't call ourselves engineers - we legally can't - engineer is a protected title. And yes, that's what I'm suggesting - there needs to be a formalization of terms for software. I'm not saying exclude the X week course individuals, but in Accounting there are "tiers" of accountant, based upon education, focus, and experience, and that may need to be instituted, allowing people to see at a glance what designation you've achieved, even if that means the bootcamp grad has to write a 50 question test at the end of their X weeks. I know, I know, pipe dreams.
    - 52-6F-62 8y ago
      Engineer isn't a unilaterally protected title here. There's plenty of people and jobs titled Software Engineer (or QA Engineer, or Site Reliability Engineer, etc). You can't misrepresent yourself as a P. Eng. however. Here in Ontario, PEO will probably nail you for it: http://www.peo.on.ca/ http://www.peo.on.ca/ Though from what I understand they frown on it because they want complete ownership of the term (but their critique really has no teeth unless you make like you are indeed licensed by a central regulatory body such as PEO): http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm edit: Just some further information on the subject in Canada—Software Engineer (among others) is a nationally recognized and distinct title (can overlap, but doesn't necessitate a P.Eng certification): http://noc.esdc.gc.ca/English/noc/ProfileQuickSearch.aspx?val=2&val1=2173&ver=16&val65=software%20engineer http://noc.esdc.gc.ca/English/noc/ProfileQuickSearch.aspx?va...

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago

Have you had luck in this endeavour? As it stands most software devs aren't actually engineers and as such are held to no ethical standard, nor have the (professionally certified) credibility behind their words to demand specific design standards.

folkrav 8y ago

Software engineers, unless they literally went through a b. eng., are not engineers, despite calling themselves that. Most software/web developers are just wage workers. "You make them pay", you being who exactly? The employee that gets a list of requirements and a deadline? These places are filled with juniors with relatively low experience. If their bosses tell them to do something, they'll do that thing, and don't have much leverage to argue.