6 ms·

Using built-in html primitives seems like such a good idea in theory, but when you have requirements that dictate a certain layout, or behavior on those element

by iaml 8y ago

Using built-in html primitives seems like such a good idea in theory, but when you have requirements that dictate a certain layout, or behavior on those elements you discover that some things you can't do, others you can only do in certain way, maybe in some browsers. Latest example of this is native input type=date: I want to use it every time I am tasked with making something that has date input, not once did it offer flexibility to meet the requirements (you can't format date, I don't think there is a way to hide clear button on ff, no duration input, etc...). Next time I'm just not gonna bother and reimplement all of it myself.

kakarot 8y ago
Native elements work if your design spec is flexible and aims to look natural on every browser and platform. If you have a rigid design they aren't as useful. Wouldn't be the end of the world if browsers actually exposed all of the relevant styling, but it does help to try and make flexible designs. HTML primitives make it a lot easier to reach accessibility spec. The date input in particular really is a mess though, every platform does it differently and phones have all sorts of weird widgets attached to it.
- tracker1 8y ago
  Date input is a mixed bag... it sucks all browsers/platforms do it weird and in incompatible ways... on the flip side, I don't like interrupting the "expected" platform behavior in terms of accessibility users.
null_content 8y ago
Web development is such a pain because the standard is sub-par (decided by committee, so no surprises there) and the implementation is even worse (full of inter-vendor inconsistencies and missing features). Frankly, last time I did web development, I felt tempted to just make the entire page one screen sized canvas and implement my own UI toolkit on it. That's bound to be more reliable (and probably faster) that the current state of affairs.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  I, too, have fond memories of ca 1998 web development.
  - null_content 8y ago
    Funny that you bring that up because in 1998, Tcl/Tk already had grid layouts (if I am not mistaken). So yes, you are finally doing UI development like it is 1998. Congratulations. Sarcasm aside, want to know what a proper GUI toolkit looks like? Take some time to play around with Qt.
mwcampbell 8y ago
> reimplement all of it myself Including accessibility? For that reason alone I think it makes sense to use the most high-level built-in features available.
- folkrav 8y ago
  Accessibility is a second-class citizen for a lot of clients, therefore a lot of web agencies. In my two years working in one, only once was I tasked with a fully accessibility compliant site, and that was because it was government subsidized. Clients will gladly pay to move buttons and complain about a particular shade of blue or opacity transition speed, but god forbid we deliberately put any hours towards making the site accessible. We could try all we want to talk them in, they were the ones who paid in the end, and most of them just don't give a crap. Most of our devs were pretty thorough about doing the most they could in the given time frames anyway, but it pretty much never was made a priority.
  - RodericDay 8y ago
    it's just as much your responsibility as it is theirs to insist on ethical standards engineers don't get to go around running saying "i was gonna put some basic safety procedures in there, but they just wouldn't pay for it" you make them pay for it
    - dentemple 8y ago
      Yeah, it doesn't work that way. It takes time to meet compliance standards, and when it comes to items like color choice, often you're against client-selected requests. I can either 1) keep pissing into the wind only to eventually be put through the grueling algorithms grind of job-searching again... Or 2) keep firmly pressing for better standards, but still do what I'm told to do.
      - madhadron 8y ago
        This is part of what a legally protected engineering title does. When you stamp something as a professional engineer, you are saying that it meets all applicable codes. That is a legal statement, and to do otherwise would be fraudulent. If you have a professional association that dictates this and has restraint of trade in place so only a member of the professional association can do it, then it's not even pushing back. It's a flat statement: "You have to do it this way or you can't have it stamped."
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
In other words, a document format is not the ideal solution for building an application. Film at 11:00.

by iaml 8y ago

kakarot 8y ago

Native elements work if your design spec is flexible and aims to look natural on every browser and platform. If you have a rigid design they aren't as useful. Wouldn't be the end of the world if browsers actually exposed all of the relevant styling, but it does help to try and make flexible designs. HTML primitives make it a lot easier to reach accessibility spec. The date input in particular really is a mess though, every platform does it differently and phones have all sorts of weird widgets attached to it.

tracker1 8y ago
Date input is a mixed bag... it sucks all browsers/platforms do it weird and in incompatible ways... on the flip side, I don't like interrupting the "expected" platform behavior in terms of accessibility users.

null_content 8y ago

Web development is such a pain because the standard is sub-par (decided by committee, so no surprises there) and the implementation is even worse (full of inter-vendor inconsistencies and missing features). Frankly, last time I did web development, I felt tempted to just make the entire page one screen sized canvas and implement my own UI toolkit on it. That's bound to be more reliable (and probably faster) that the current state of affairs.

shaki-dora 8y ago
I, too, have fond memories of ca 1998 web development.
- null_content 8y ago
  Funny that you bring that up because in 1998, Tcl/Tk already had grid layouts (if I am not mistaken). So yes, you are finally doing UI development like it is 1998. Congratulations. Sarcasm aside, want to know what a proper GUI toolkit looks like? Take some time to play around with Qt.

mwcampbell 8y ago

> reimplement all of it myself Including accessibility? For that reason alone I think it makes sense to use the most high-level built-in features available.

folkrav 8y ago
Accessibility is a second-class citizen for a lot of clients, therefore a lot of web agencies. In my two years working in one, only once was I tasked with a fully accessibility compliant site, and that was because it was government subsidized. Clients will gladly pay to move buttons and complain about a particular shade of blue or opacity transition speed, but god forbid we deliberately put any hours towards making the site accessible. We could try all we want to talk them in, they were the ones who paid in the end, and most of them just don't give a crap. Most of our devs were pretty thorough about doing the most they could in the given time frames anyway, but it pretty much never was made a priority.
- RodericDay 8y ago
  it's just as much your responsibility as it is theirs to insist on ethical standards engineers don't get to go around running saying "i was gonna put some basic safety procedures in there, but they just wouldn't pay for it" you make them pay for it
  - dentemple 8y ago
    Yeah, it doesn't work that way. It takes time to meet compliance standards, and when it comes to items like color choice, often you're against client-selected requests. I can either 1) keep pissing into the wind only to eventually be put through the grueling algorithms grind of job-searching again... Or 2) keep firmly pressing for better standards, but still do what I'm told to do.
    - madhadron 8y ago
      This is part of what a legally protected engineering title does. When you stamp something as a professional engineer, you are saying that it meets all applicable codes. That is a legal statement, and to do otherwise would be fraudulent. If you have a professional association that dictates this and has restraint of trade in place so only a member of the professional association can do it, then it's not even pushing back. It's a flat statement: "You have to do it this way or you can't have it stamped."

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

In other words, a document format is not the ideal solution for building an application. Film at 11:00.