10 ms·

"I went outside to get coffee and ran into three different neighbors who wanted to chit-chat. I wanted to scream, ‘For every word that comes out of your mouth,

"I went outside to get coffee and ran into three different neighbors who wanted to chit-chat. I wanted to scream, ‘For every word that comes out of your mouth, I’m losing money!" This is a statement from someone who either hasn't been freelancing that long, or who hasn't realized that "brain down time" is just as important as raw coding hours. I've worked "for myself" for almost 20 years and for the first 5 I too panicked when daytime billable hours were derailed by "distractions". Once you push beyond that, you realize that those times away from your machine are valuable, and actually contribute to your overall well being, and your ability to code with a clear head, and an efficient mindset. Wasting away "on salary" is a hard mindset to break. The answer is not to replace 100% of your salary hours with your own freelance work. You'll find even 50% of your previous salaried time can get just as much done, and make just as much money (assuming you price your services and value properly)

jpatokal 8y ago
Yes, that's pretty much what the friendly article says: > “If we’re already in the time-is-money mindset, we can reframe our leisure time as something that enables us to be more productive in the future,” says Whillan. “When we’re conditioned to think of all our time as ‘on the clock,’ leisure time feels abstract and unsatisfying. But if we tell ourselves that leisure time is another means to achieve that goal or financial outcome, that can make us more likely to take the breaks that we need, enjoy them fully, and be happier in general.”
- OJFord 8y ago
  That's interesting, because I think (I don't freelance) I'd look at it the other way: work funds my leisure, so how much must I work to fund the leisure?
  - gumaflux 8y ago
    Good point. But leisure is not a fixed box (for me at least). I have been freelancing for 20+ years. Fully agreed with OC, my clients are not paying for me to sit by the desk they're paying for solutions to problems. The more complex the problem, usually the less tapping on keyboard. I know, some gigs are in fact just showing your face on Skype or in presence, I have come to avoid these regardless of leisure impact.
  - hopler 8y ago
    Sleep isn't fun enough to be worth 8hr every day. But we try to do it anyway because it makes non-sleep hours better. That's the sort of thing OP is talking anout.
    - braindouche 8y ago
      Give it ten years, you'll change your tune.
    - OJFord 8y ago
      No but you're justifying the non-work time again - I'm saying it's the _work_ time that needs to be justified (by what it allows me to do that costs actual money - okay, buy a bed, sure) _not_ vice versa. I'd like to think that, were I not salaried, I'd work only as much as i needed in order to do whatever it was that I wanted to do with the rest of my time - not relax in a way that allowed me to work as much as possible. Of course, in reality it's a slightly harder optimisation problem than presented, since time is a factor too, and maybe you can't afford to do what you want to do leisurely for 4 days a week, working 3, but it can be done at 3.5 each way.
- josefresco 8y ago
  My comment was re: the author's statement who was/is clearly struggling with the concept of freelance/not working on salary. The quote above is from Psychologist Ashley Whillan, and I couldn't agree more. FYI my parent comment got 19 upvotes in a matter of just a few minutes - it clearly resonates with a lot of folks here.
stevage 8y ago
50%? Even less in my case. 3 hours a day is plenty to get paid as much as I was before on a salary. Honestly I find the time-related issue as a freelancer is having too much of it, and putting it to good use rather than just lounging around.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Do you include your self-employment tax, health insurance, and saving for retirement in those three hours as well? Or is that just making up what was in your take-home pay?
  - HenryBemis 8y ago
    If one lives a modest life (no Ferraris/Great-Gatsby-parties), on a sensible financial management, one can have north of £/€/$1m on the side, in one decade(speaking for UK/EU/USA)(for contracts on IT/IT Sec/GRC/PM.
    - nickdandakis 8y ago
      I think the vast majority of people would find it incredibly difficult to save ~7.5k per month for 10 years (assuming an annually compound savings interest of 2.2%), to hit 1M. That type of savings goes beyond "no Ferraris/Great-Gatsby-parties".
      - scottlocklin 8y ago
        Depends. If you have a SEP-IRA, half of that is pre-tax. If you've optimized your location away from California/New York on a normal tech billing regime (2x salary, maybe 3/4 the billable hours), you're almost there on tax savings alone; let alone housing expenses.
        bonestamp2 8y ago
        I didn't realize just how big a difference that pre-tax savings makes until recently. A couple weeks ago I thought there was an error when I increased my pre-tax savings and I noticed my take home pay only went down 66% of what I increased my savings by. I logged in and realized that the full amount I increased by was coming off, but I was saving 33% in taxes so my take home only went down 66% of what I expected. For example, let's say I increased my bi-weekly savings by $150. Because it was pre-tax, with the tax savings I was still saving $150 but my take home only went down $100. By the time I want that money, I shouldn't have a mortgage payment so I'll need far less money than I'm making now and my income tax should be much lower, not to mention the additional gains on a higher principle.
buboard 8y ago
Yep i would guess most freelancers would welcome and even seek some outside interaction, given that it's an isolating experience.
rb808 8y ago
The problem though is how do you bill clients? If you're "working" and surfing HN you could possibly bill that, but walking around talking to neighbours doesn't cut it.
- zilian 8y ago
  So many consulting companies would bill those hours anyway
- TrickyRick 8y ago
  Bill by FTE day/week/month instead. Much better for your nerves and easier to invoice.
- chrisweekly 8y ago
  Project-based billing solves this neatly. It also ensures alignment of incentives (ie, working faster / more efficiently yields higher effective rate, vs working faster -> get paid less), and is helpful in emphasizing value. For time and materials projects, avoid hourly if possible; that leads to micromanagement and commodification of your skills. I recommend billing by sprints or by the week. Try to limit granularity to a day rate (w/ minimum increments of 1/2 day).
  - sacado2 8y ago
    It's better from the client POV too. As a client, I have work that must be done, I want to know how much it will cost, I don't care whether it takes you 3 hours or 10 hours, and I especially don't want to hear "whoops... I miscalculated, I will need more time, gimme more money".
- hopler 8y ago
  What is the argument that goofing on HN is more justifiable to a client than walking and talking?
- neuralzen 8y ago
  I believe this is billed as "Executive Creative Time" in modern nomenclature.
rglover 8y ago
Great response. I chuckled at the first 5 panicking as that's dead on. The reality, as counterintuitive as it seems, is that when you're not going full bore your work is better (read: qualitative not quantitative focus). In turn, you can charge more and people trust your ability to produce a result more. The rest takes care of itself.
balabaster 8y ago
The biggest problem for me was my (ex)spouse always pushing for billable hours. Every time I decided I wanted time off there was a constant nagging reminder and guilt of not only what it would cost to go and do what I want - for example cost of flights, accommodation, entertainment and food, but also the cost of the loss of income for that time off meaning that every time I was away from my keyboard it was costing me 10 times as much. There was always a reminder to "be responsible and not lose the income" which is a toxic mindset to be in. These days I skip off work at every possible opportunity and to hell with anyone who can't comprehend my lack of will to bill every waking hour, partners and family included. I may not get paid as much, but there's so much more to life than work. Sure, I'm not billing when I could be and sure there's plenty enough work that I could bill 24 hours a day if I had enough energy and will power to do that, but I don't care. My mental health and my other passions need playtime or I'm going to flame out and never come back to this. If you don't have a spouse that's supportive and encouraging of your need for downtime away from work, then you're caught in a double trap.
- mcv 8y ago
  I'm happy I have neither this problem nor the ones in the article. I'm aware what my time is worth, but I'm also aware I'm making enough money that I don't have to worry about it. I'm extremely careless about money; not that I'm wasting it (the opposite, rather), but as long as there's money, I'm fine. When I have too much, I shovel it away to some place where it catches interest. I've got an accountant who worries about the details. Recently, my son, still in primary school, had to check out a potential secondary school. My wife wasn't able to take him there, so I left early. Cost me €240 in revenue. That's a lot of money, but then again, I made more than that in the rest of the day, and I don't want to deny myself the opportunity to do these things with my son. There's more in life than money. Sure, it's important, but only as a way to an end. Money itself is not the goal, life is. Don't sacrifice your life or happiness for mere money. (Of course it's easy to say that when you can afford to. Not everybody can.)
  - balabaster 8y ago
    I'm normally rather careless with money too... I earn far more than I need to live quite comfortably on a normal basis, there's rarely a month where I spend anywhere close to what comes in. But when I do want something, I don't think twice about buying it. Recently I've been shoveling it into a long term project that will hopefully pay dividends in the longer term, but the jury's presently out on whether that will actually come to fruition. Time will tell. I agree, not everyone can afford to live as frivolous a lifestyle. I've been very fortunate to have had the choices and opportunities I have to be able to make headway. I try never to take that for granted, because it doesn't take too many wrong moves and you're the one trying to scrape your way to get above the poverty line again.
maire 8y ago
I had the opposite experience from the author of the article. It must have been because I valued my family time over my working time. When my son was in high school I went from full time employee to part time contractor. It was great. Since there was a clear contract I didn't have to worry about office politics or my off-work time. I focused on working hard while working and I focused on my family when not working. I took every summer off-work.
C1sc0cat 8y ago
Based on UK experience a contractor (in tech) would aim to make at least 2-3x your gross as an employee and pay less tax.
stronglikedan 8y ago
> I wanted to scream Why not just say something along the lines of, "Sorry, I work from home and I'm on the clock but just popping out for a cup of coffee - chat later.", with a smile? It's much better for your mental constitution than holding in a scream.
sam0x17 8y ago
The real answer is to bill based on milestones instead of billing based on hours. Hourly billing in my experience is just a slippery slope to being way too conscious about time and creates a conflict of interest in that it is in your interest to take longer, but that isn't in the interest of your client. Billing off of milestones aligns interests because it is in both of your interests to complete milestones quickly. The only thing you have to watch out for is scope creep which can be easily addressed with contract clauses that address this.
jammygit 8y ago
"I've worked "for myself" for almost 20 years" What were the early years like? How did you get clients, and how long was it until you started making decent money?
Hoasi 8y ago
> "I went outside to get coffee and ran into three different neighbors who wanted to chit-chat. I wanted to scream, ‘For every word that comes out of your mouth, I’m losing money!" That was the point of the whole article... Wrong way to look at the problem. A freelancer who get paid by project, not hourly, will never encounter this kind of problem. Hourly assignments are like being an employee but without any of the benefits.

jpatokal 8y ago

Yes, that's pretty much what the friendly article says: > “If we’re already in the time-is-money mindset, we can reframe our leisure time as something that enables us to be more productive in the future,” says Whillan. “When we’re conditioned to think of all our time as ‘on the clock,’ leisure time feels abstract and unsatisfying. But if we tell ourselves that leisure time is another means to achieve that goal or financial outcome, that can make us more likely to take the breaks that we need, enjoy them fully, and be happier in general.”

OJFord 8y ago
That's interesting, because I think (I don't freelance) I'd look at it the other way: work funds my leisure, so how much must I work to fund the leisure?
- gumaflux 8y ago
  Good point. But leisure is not a fixed box (for me at least). I have been freelancing for 20+ years. Fully agreed with OC, my clients are not paying for me to sit by the desk they're paying for solutions to problems. The more complex the problem, usually the less tapping on keyboard. I know, some gigs are in fact just showing your face on Skype or in presence, I have come to avoid these regardless of leisure impact.
- hopler 8y ago
  Sleep isn't fun enough to be worth 8hr every day. But we try to do it anyway because it makes non-sleep hours better. That's the sort of thing OP is talking anout.
  - braindouche 8y ago
    Give it ten years, you'll change your tune.
  - OJFord 8y ago
    No but you're justifying the non-work time again - I'm saying it's the _work_ time that needs to be justified (by what it allows me to do that costs actual money - okay, buy a bed, sure) _not_ vice versa. I'd like to think that, were I not salaried, I'd work only as much as i needed in order to do whatever it was that I wanted to do with the rest of my time - not relax in a way that allowed me to work as much as possible. Of course, in reality it's a slightly harder optimisation problem than presented, since time is a factor too, and maybe you can't afford to do what you want to do leisurely for 4 days a week, working 3, but it can be done at 3.5 each way.
josefresco 8y ago
My comment was re: the author's statement who was/is clearly struggling with the concept of freelance/not working on salary. The quote above is from Psychologist Ashley Whillan, and I couldn't agree more. FYI my parent comment got 19 upvotes in a matter of just a few minutes - it clearly resonates with a lot of folks here.

stevage 8y ago

50%? Even less in my case. 3 hours a day is plenty to get paid as much as I was before on a salary. Honestly I find the time-related issue as a freelancer is having too much of it, and putting it to good use rather than just lounging around.

ams6110 8y ago
Do you include your self-employment tax, health insurance, and saving for retirement in those three hours as well? Or is that just making up what was in your take-home pay?
- HenryBemis 8y ago
  If one lives a modest life (no Ferraris/Great-Gatsby-parties), on a sensible financial management, one can have north of £/€/$1m on the side, in one decade(speaking for UK/EU/USA)(for contracts on IT/IT Sec/GRC/PM.
  - nickdandakis 8y ago
    I think the vast majority of people would find it incredibly difficult to save ~7.5k per month for 10 years (assuming an annually compound savings interest of 2.2%), to hit 1M. That type of savings goes beyond "no Ferraris/Great-Gatsby-parties".
    - scottlocklin 8y ago
      Depends. If you have a SEP-IRA, half of that is pre-tax. If you've optimized your location away from California/New York on a normal tech billing regime (2x salary, maybe 3/4 the billable hours), you're almost there on tax savings alone; let alone housing expenses.
      - bonestamp2 8y ago
        I didn't realize just how big a difference that pre-tax savings makes until recently. A couple weeks ago I thought there was an error when I increased my pre-tax savings and I noticed my take home pay only went down 66% of what I increased my savings by. I logged in and realized that the full amount I increased by was coming off, but I was saving 33% in taxes so my take home only went down 66% of what I expected. For example, let's say I increased my bi-weekly savings by $150. Because it was pre-tax, with the tax savings I was still saving $150 but my take home only went down $100. By the time I want that money, I shouldn't have a mortgage payment so I'll need far less money than I'm making now and my income tax should be much lower, not to mention the additional gains on a higher principle.

buboard 8y ago

Yep i would guess most freelancers would welcome and even seek some outside interaction, given that it's an isolating experience.

rb808 8y ago

The problem though is how do you bill clients? If you're "working" and surfing HN you could possibly bill that, but walking around talking to neighbours doesn't cut it.

zilian 8y ago
So many consulting companies would bill those hours anyway
TrickyRick 8y ago
Bill by FTE day/week/month instead. Much better for your nerves and easier to invoice.
chrisweekly 8y ago
Project-based billing solves this neatly. It also ensures alignment of incentives (ie, working faster / more efficiently yields higher effective rate, vs working faster -> get paid less), and is helpful in emphasizing value. For time and materials projects, avoid hourly if possible; that leads to micromanagement and commodification of your skills. I recommend billing by sprints or by the week. Try to limit granularity to a day rate (w/ minimum increments of 1/2 day).
- sacado2 8y ago
  It's better from the client POV too. As a client, I have work that must be done, I want to know how much it will cost, I don't care whether it takes you 3 hours or 10 hours, and I especially don't want to hear "whoops... I miscalculated, I will need more time, gimme more money".
hopler 8y ago
What is the argument that goofing on HN is more justifiable to a client than walking and talking?
neuralzen 8y ago
I believe this is billed as "Executive Creative Time" in modern nomenclature.

rglover 8y ago

Great response. I chuckled at the first 5 panicking as that's dead on. The reality, as counterintuitive as it seems, is that when you're not going full bore your work is better (read: qualitative not quantitative focus). In turn, you can charge more and people trust your ability to produce a result more. The rest takes care of itself.

balabaster 8y ago

The biggest problem for me was my (ex)spouse always pushing for billable hours. Every time I decided I wanted time off there was a constant nagging reminder and guilt of not only what it would cost to go and do what I want - for example cost of flights, accommodation, entertainment and food, but also the cost of the loss of income for that time off meaning that every time I was away from my keyboard it was costing me 10 times as much. There was always a reminder to "be responsible and not lose the income" which is a toxic mindset to be in. These days I skip off work at every possible opportunity and to hell with anyone who can't comprehend my lack of will to bill every waking hour, partners and family included. I may not get paid as much, but there's so much more to life than work. Sure, I'm not billing when I could be and sure there's plenty enough work that I could bill 24 hours a day if I had enough energy and will power to do that, but I don't care. My mental health and my other passions need playtime or I'm going to flame out and never come back to this. If you don't have a spouse that's supportive and encouraging of your need for downtime away from work, then you're caught in a double trap.

mcv 8y ago
I'm happy I have neither this problem nor the ones in the article. I'm aware what my time is worth, but I'm also aware I'm making enough money that I don't have to worry about it. I'm extremely careless about money; not that I'm wasting it (the opposite, rather), but as long as there's money, I'm fine. When I have too much, I shovel it away to some place where it catches interest. I've got an accountant who worries about the details. Recently, my son, still in primary school, had to check out a potential secondary school. My wife wasn't able to take him there, so I left early. Cost me €240 in revenue. That's a lot of money, but then again, I made more than that in the rest of the day, and I don't want to deny myself the opportunity to do these things with my son. There's more in life than money. Sure, it's important, but only as a way to an end. Money itself is not the goal, life is. Don't sacrifice your life or happiness for mere money. (Of course it's easy to say that when you can afford to. Not everybody can.)
- balabaster 8y ago
  I'm normally rather careless with money too... I earn far more than I need to live quite comfortably on a normal basis, there's rarely a month where I spend anywhere close to what comes in. But when I do want something, I don't think twice about buying it. Recently I've been shoveling it into a long term project that will hopefully pay dividends in the longer term, but the jury's presently out on whether that will actually come to fruition. Time will tell. I agree, not everyone can afford to live as frivolous a lifestyle. I've been very fortunate to have had the choices and opportunities I have to be able to make headway. I try never to take that for granted, because it doesn't take too many wrong moves and you're the one trying to scrape your way to get above the poverty line again.

maire 8y ago

I had the opposite experience from the author of the article. It must have been because I valued my family time over my working time. When my son was in high school I went from full time employee to part time contractor. It was great. Since there was a clear contract I didn't have to worry about office politics or my off-work time. I focused on working hard while working and I focused on my family when not working. I took every summer off-work.

C1sc0cat 8y ago

Based on UK experience a contractor (in tech) would aim to make at least 2-3x your gross as an employee and pay less tax.

stronglikedan 8y ago

> I wanted to scream Why not just say something along the lines of, "Sorry, I work from home and I'm on the clock but just popping out for a cup of coffee - chat later.", with a smile? It's much better for your mental constitution than holding in a scream.

sam0x17 8y ago

The real answer is to bill based on milestones instead of billing based on hours. Hourly billing in my experience is just a slippery slope to being way too conscious about time and creates a conflict of interest in that it is in your interest to take longer, but that isn't in the interest of your client. Billing off of milestones aligns interests because it is in both of your interests to complete milestones quickly. The only thing you have to watch out for is scope creep which can be easily addressed with contract clauses that address this.

jammygit 8y ago

"I've worked "for myself" for almost 20 years" What were the early years like? How did you get clients, and how long was it until you started making decent money?

Hoasi 8y ago

> "I went outside to get coffee and ran into three different neighbors who wanted to chit-chat. I wanted to scream, ‘For every word that comes out of your mouth, I’m losing money!" That was the point of the whole article... Wrong way to look at the problem. A freelancer who get paid by project, not hourly, will never encounter this kind of problem. Hourly assignments are like being an employee but without any of the benefits.