7 ms·

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at onlin

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless somebody else fails to turn up; and I'd assumed that the European carriers probably do overbook but manage it at check in time; I've never seen or heard of anyone ever getting turned away at the gate when they already had a boarding pass.

saiya-jin 8y ago
It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined. It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough to airlines to abandon this practice. I am sympathetic for delays/cancellations for causes out of influence of an airline, but this is conscious risk taken by airline and big FU to travellers.
- FabHK 8y ago
  > It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed No. The number of pax that show up is somewhat random, the number of seats on the plane is somewhat random (weight and balance, broken oxygen mask or seatbelt, higher priority pax such as crew that need to be ferried to a flight that could not otherwise go, etc.) To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful. Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? In a plane, you can't just have a few more people sit in the aisle. Now, like any stochastic problem, you assign weights to both suboptimal outcomes (empty seats, bumped pax), and optimise, which leads to modest overbooking. Now, most of the time everyone gets along (and more people than without modest overbooking), and sometimes some people are denied boarding. Some people need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and some people don't care if they're a day or two late. So you ask for volunteers and compensate. It's not only perfectly rational, but also perfectly moral. Why don't you get upset that people ever have to wait for surgery? Why don't we double the number of doctors and hospitals, so that always anytime someone needs surgery they can immediately get it? Well, because it's prohibitively expensive, and it's much more efficient to keep the facilities utilised as fully as possible, and shift around the demand (patients) a bit. Is that a deplorable strategy based on pure greed? No, it's a sensible optimisation to utilise scarce resources as well as we can. Talking of greed, do you know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Easy, start with a big fortune. Of course, regulation could make bumping pax even more expensive and thus change the calculation. That would probably lead to higher ticket prices and more (but emptier) planes in the air. Is that preferable to the current "pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed"? EDIT to add: This is assuming decent communication, and decent compensation for bumped pax (as is the case in Europe). I'm not really familiar with the situation in Northern America, if they just bump pax without compensation and/or lie to them, that's clearly not good, either.
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    > So you ask for volunteers and compensate. I've never experienced the process of asking passengers who wants to stay. Only finding out at the gate at the last moment. Also seen it happened to many other travelers while I passed through - finding out their ticket won't get you through the gate - shocked, frustrated, pissed off. You seem to be an airline apologist, maybe an insider? Or you just never faced the situation described? Way too many wrong/incorrect statements in your post to cover all of those, and tons of whataboutism. But at least some: > Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? Why oh why... should I care? Its a public transport offering, nothing more or special. It certainly doesn't give them some extra credit so they can act amorally to maximize profits. > To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful. By your logic, we should all be transferred like a cattle, since it would be way more efficient, and who cares about treating customers with basic dignity when you can optimize, right? Bottom line - my opinion is airlines should pay extra to people they on purpose deny boarding due to overbooking compared to other causes, only because their wonderful analytical methods and systems screwed up again. In all my overbooking experiences, the compensation was too small to even cover additional expenses I had to pay to cover for the mess created by airlines. And how do you compensate stress, frustration, missed opportunities, reduced time for vacation etc on top of that? Also the process of retrieval compensation is often as complicated as possible, ie that LOT took quite a few calls to their support to send me a 'secret' link you simply can't find on their website, and it took more than 2 months to get money after filling it. It was even an EU regulation breach, but do you think anybody at airline cared? At least some other airlines were more direct. How do you apologize the fact they let you roll through check in, but send you home/to hotel only at the gate? It is really a wonderful experience, apparently you might benefit from that humiliation a bit and see things from customer's perspective.
yason 8y ago
At least with European carriers (with flight to/from USA) each time I've been offered to take a later flight it has been at the check-in or bag drop, I've been informed that should I accept I'd get a boarding pass and should go to the gate where they would eventually tell me whether I'm flying or not. So, no surprises there, ever. They gather a group of passengers willing to trade their flights and pick flyers vs hotel goers among those.
notahacker 8y ago
I suspect it's rarer in Europe because the mandatory compensation costs of failing to put a passenger on a flight close to the originally scheduled time are so high. That said, I've had a gate agent try very hard to bump me off an intra-EU flight which I assume was due to overbooking (I was on business, so I expect they bumped a later arrival with a more expensive ticket instead...)
- ahje 8y ago
  In the EU airlines have to compensate passengers who are denied boarding if the reason is that the flight is overbooked: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#overbooked https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right... The same applies for flights cancelled for operational reasons, and the airlines may end up having to book tickets with one of their competitors if the competitor have seats available.
  - FearNotDaniel 8y ago
    > In the EU Ah. So presumably, as a Brit, I can look forward to a new influx of shitty business practices starting in six weeks' time. Yay.
chrisper 8y ago
No, European Airlines do this as well. But if you check in online, you have your seat.
stubish 8y ago
I hit an overbooked flight in Europe last year (Air France, intercontinental flight out of Paris). I suspect it happens a lot less than in North America, because there is a mandatory payment of 600 Euro per passenger if you get to the departure gate but are denied boarding to the plane. There may be other mandatory requirements depending on how quickly they can get you to your destination. I got a few hours delay and an alternate, non-direct flight via a non-allied airline.
- thelasthuman 8y ago
  > I suspect it happens a lot less than in North America, because there is a mandatory payment of 600 Euro per passenger if you get to the departure gate but are denied boarding to the plane Is there anything that keeps the fine increasing alongside inflation?

saiya-jin 8y ago

It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined. It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough to airlines to abandon this practice. I am sympathetic for delays/cancellations for causes out of influence of an airline, but this is conscious risk taken by airline and big FU to travellers.

FabHK 8y ago
> It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed No. The number of pax that show up is somewhat random, the number of seats on the plane is somewhat random (weight and balance, broken oxygen mask or seatbelt, higher priority pax such as crew that need to be ferried to a flight that could not otherwise go, etc.) To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful. Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? In a plane, you can't just have a few more people sit in the aisle. Now, like any stochastic problem, you assign weights to both suboptimal outcomes (empty seats, bumped pax), and optimise, which leads to modest overbooking. Now, most of the time everyone gets along (and more people than without modest overbooking), and sometimes some people are denied boarding. Some people need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and some people don't care if they're a day or two late. So you ask for volunteers and compensate. It's not only perfectly rational, but also perfectly moral. Why don't you get upset that people ever have to wait for surgery? Why don't we double the number of doctors and hospitals, so that always anytime someone needs surgery they can immediately get it? Well, because it's prohibitively expensive, and it's much more efficient to keep the facilities utilised as fully as possible, and shift around the demand (patients) a bit. Is that a deplorable strategy based on pure greed? No, it's a sensible optimisation to utilise scarce resources as well as we can. Talking of greed, do you know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Easy, start with a big fortune. Of course, regulation could make bumping pax even more expensive and thus change the calculation. That would probably lead to higher ticket prices and more (but emptier) planes in the air. Is that preferable to the current "pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed"? EDIT to add: This is assuming decent communication, and decent compensation for bumped pax (as is the case in Europe). I'm not really familiar with the situation in Northern America, if they just bump pax without compensation and/or lie to them, that's clearly not good, either.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  > So you ask for volunteers and compensate. I've never experienced the process of asking passengers who wants to stay. Only finding out at the gate at the last moment. Also seen it happened to many other travelers while I passed through - finding out their ticket won't get you through the gate - shocked, frustrated, pissed off. You seem to be an airline apologist, maybe an insider? Or you just never faced the situation described? Way too many wrong/incorrect statements in your post to cover all of those, and tons of whataboutism. But at least some: > Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? Why oh why... should I care? Its a public transport offering, nothing more or special. It certainly doesn't give them some extra credit so they can act amorally to maximize profits. > To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful. By your logic, we should all be transferred like a cattle, since it would be way more efficient, and who cares about treating customers with basic dignity when you can optimize, right? Bottom line - my opinion is airlines should pay extra to people they on purpose deny boarding due to overbooking compared to other causes, only because their wonderful analytical methods and systems screwed up again. In all my overbooking experiences, the compensation was too small to even cover additional expenses I had to pay to cover for the mess created by airlines. And how do you compensate stress, frustration, missed opportunities, reduced time for vacation etc on top of that? Also the process of retrieval compensation is often as complicated as possible, ie that LOT took quite a few calls to their support to send me a 'secret' link you simply can't find on their website, and it took more than 2 months to get money after filling it. It was even an EU regulation breach, but do you think anybody at airline cared? At least some other airlines were more direct. How do you apologize the fact they let you roll through check in, but send you home/to hotel only at the gate? It is really a wonderful experience, apparently you might benefit from that humiliation a bit and see things from customer's perspective.

yason 8y ago

At least with European carriers (with flight to/from USA) each time I've been offered to take a later flight it has been at the check-in or bag drop, I've been informed that should I accept I'd get a boarding pass and should go to the gate where they would eventually tell me whether I'm flying or not. So, no surprises there, ever. They gather a group of passengers willing to trade their flights and pick flyers vs hotel goers among those.

notahacker 8y ago

I suspect it's rarer in Europe because the mandatory compensation costs of failing to put a passenger on a flight close to the originally scheduled time are so high. That said, I've had a gate agent try very hard to bump me off an intra-EU flight which I assume was due to overbooking (I was on business, so I expect they bumped a later arrival with a more expensive ticket instead...)

ahje 8y ago
In the EU airlines have to compensate passengers who are denied boarding if the reason is that the flight is overbooked: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#overbooked https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right... The same applies for flights cancelled for operational reasons, and the airlines may end up having to book tickets with one of their competitors if the competitor have seats available.
- FearNotDaniel 8y ago
  > In the EU Ah. So presumably, as a Brit, I can look forward to a new influx of shitty business practices starting in six weeks' time. Yay.

chrisper 8y ago

No, European Airlines do this as well. But if you check in online, you have your seat.

stubish 8y ago

I hit an overbooked flight in Europe last year (Air France, intercontinental flight out of Paris). I suspect it happens a lot less than in North America, because there is a mandatory payment of 600 Euro per passenger if you get to the departure gate but are denied boarding to the plane. There may be other mandatory requirements depending on how quickly they can get you to your destination. I got a few hours delay and an alternate, non-direct flight via a non-allied airline.

thelasthuman 8y ago
> I suspect it happens a lot less than in North America, because there is a mandatory payment of 600 Euro per passenger if you get to the departure gate but are denied boarding to the plane Is there anything that keeps the fine increasing alongside inflation?