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Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

135 points by stygiansonic 8y ago

stygiansonic 8y ago
Supposedly this is a company internal document[0], which states: Air Canada Revenue Management’s team is tasked with ensuring that the maximum revenue potential is made on each and every flight we operate. As it is known that a certain percentage of confirmed customers do not show for their flights, it is sometimes necessary to sell more seats than aircraft capacity. Revenue Management uses a sophisticated system that uses “day of” and historical information to monitor all flights in Air Canada’s system, calculating the acceptable level of oversell risk. 0. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5729064-Denied-Boarding-DBC-Policy-and-Procedures.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5729064-Denied-Board...
- Johnny555 8y ago
  All airlines do this... at least all USA airlines. Hotels do it too -- in the 90's I worked for a hotel chain and helped integrate an airline vendor's revenue management system into the hotels central reservation system. Just like the airlines, hotels use past booking and seasonality/special event data to figure out how much to charge for rooms and how much to overbook to maximize revenue. Prior to the software, hotel managers did it manually. Pretty much every industry that sells products subject to spoilage does it too -- a grocery store determines how much bread to order to avoid throwing away spoiled bread that didn't sell before it spoiled while avoiding running out (the equivalent of overbooking - the consumer wants it but can't have it). But grocery stores and airlines have the opposite problem - airlines can't control supply (in the short term), they have a fixed amount of product to sell so they primarily use pricing to control demand. Grocery stores control supply (within reason) so if demand changes, they can just order more or less product (but they can also alter pricing).
- cjbprime 8y ago
  That's just a description of overselling. What's unique to Air Canada about this story? Do the other airlines do this too?
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    Service staff appear to not make it clear to customers that unless your boarding pass has a seat number on it that you don't have a seat.
    - vkou 8y ago
      No airline I have ever flown with has ever made this clear to me. Ever. Maybe if you know what magic words to ask, and specifically ask them - but at that point, you should already know the answer.
      - dannyw 8y ago
        For the record, I've got the dreaded GATE many times, and never been denied boarding.
jonny_eh 8y ago
Doesn't every airline do this?
- arkitaip 8y ago
  I have never seen this happen in Sweden.
devoply 8y ago
There should be a law to disclose this sort of information when you purchase a ticket... as well as the probability that you will be denied passage on the flight you are booking... In fact you could even make it so that they tell you the alternative you will be offered if that event occurs. They could even offer a premium price to guarantee your flight. The whole point is to make this process more predictable for travelers. The tech exists, only the political will to force its use is necessary.
- vkou 8y ago
  The alternative that you're offered, 99% of the time, is a seat on the next flight.
  - bpye 8y ago
    Which is sort of workable if you are taking a direct flight to some location within the same continent and the next flight is in a couple of hours... If the next flight is the next day then that is pretty unacceptable.
    - peteretep 8y ago
      Depends if they’re offering a hotel too. I’ve been voluntarily bumped more than once when I didn’t have anywhere I needed to be, and the compensation was definitely worth it
- geofft 8y ago
  I believe this is all in the contract of carriage, except for the probability (I'm not sure how you'd make a law mandating accurate estimates...). The problem is once you make laws to disclose all the things people need to know (and, to be clear, I think they genuinely do need to know a bunch of stuff) it turns into five pages of fine print.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  They could even offer a premium price to guarantee your flight They do -- they call it a "full fare ticket" -- airlines bend over backwards to accommodate these full fare fliers, even if it means bumping a paid economy passenger from the flight. Though it's a pretty steep fee -- usually several times more than the restricted fare.
ageek123 8y ago
Wait, there are people who don't realize that when they can't get an assigned seat when they book the ticket (and it's not because they bought a special fare that doesn't allow a reserved seats), it's because the flight is oversold and they will be waitlisted for a seat? Every airline does this.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  That's not always what it means when you have no seat assignment, especially with codeshares. I've bought tickets that had no assigned seat until checkin even though the flight was undersold.
- peteretep 8y ago
  This is that whole feigned surprise thing that Recurse Center bans, isn’t it?
geofft 8y ago
This seems like standard practice for US airlines, including the part where checking in and going through seat assignment means you have a seat (because it indicates you're unlikely to be a no-show). What's different here? Are they communicating to passengers differently? Are they overselling much more aggressively than US carriers / worse at predicting? Do fewer Air Canada passengers accept offers to take a later flight, or do they fly routes where that doesn't work?
jerkstate 8y ago
Overselling airline seats is pretty typical, but is there any reason for the check-in agent to give the ticketholder false hope? That just seems like passing the buck to the gate agent.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  To sell the seat? If they tell the customer "Well, we're not sure if you have a seat, go ask the gate agent", then some customers will not want to bother and will cancel or change their flight -- so the airline goes from an overbooking situation to an underbooking situation, which costs the airline money.
  - jerkstate 8y ago
    Well I have checked in on oversold flights before but never has a check in agent ever told me "don't worry about it, you'll get a seat for sure" - they have always been honest about how the process will work at the gate and usually give me a decent guess at the likelihood that I'll get a seat, offer to rebook (usually you have to ask to have them look for flights on other carriers, but they are required to do that if possible), but they usually can't offer as many incentives (miles, vouchers) there like they can at the gate. What this check in agent is claiming to do on Air Canadas behalf just sounds unnecessarily cruel.
    - hinkley 8y ago
      I did get that assurance once, but I was flying to see a family member in the ICU at Christmas. Can’t recall now if they asked for volunteers but I do recall the complete lack of wiggle words calmed me down.
jtchang 8y ago
I'm not surprised airlines do this. I don't think it is just Air Canada. In a way it makes sense but it does make me think they are a bit greedy. If someone buys a ticket and does not show up for a flight then usually they don't get a refund/credit (or a crappy one: I'm looking at you United). But now the airline has an empty seat. The best thing to do is fill it. But you can't fill it the last moment so you need to overbook. But if you overbook too much then you need to start bumping people off. So the airline gets to keep all the revenue from the overbooking as well as the fees for the refund which can be substantial. It's a bit like double dipping.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  If airplanes routinely fly with empty seats, that means they need more airplanes flying to move the passengers. This isn't very environmentally friendly. People should support airplanes flying full.
  - Firadeoclus 8y ago
    Full-ish, yes. But optimising for efficiency always comes at a cost to resilience, and bumping passengers at the last minute has real environmental and wellbeing costs, too.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      > wellbeing Ok, so environmentalism doesn't matter if it's inconvenient.
- jnordwick 8y ago
  The US airlines make on avg $17.75 per passenger with a profit margin of about 9%. http://money.com/money/5158363/airline-profit-per-passenger/ http://money.com/money/5158363/airline-profit-per-passenger/ That's pretty far from greedy.
  - throw_away2 8y ago
    The very next sentence after that quote is: > This per-passenger profit is roughly double what airlines around the world make per passenger, according to the International Air Transport Association
theabsurdman 8y ago
Overselling wouldn't seem as egregious if they didn't then go ahead and do stuff like this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/air-canada-reneges-on-dollar800-voucher-after-traveler-volunteers-plane-seat/ar-BBTbaP3 https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/air-canada-reneges-on-...
joecool1029 8y ago
On topic: Depends on where you are. I was on an overbooked flight with WOW in Iceland a few months back, they ultimately ended up getting me a seat, but there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight within X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline. I'll try to dig it up again... Somewhat unrelated but I had a terrible time with Air Canada a couple weeks ago for a YUL > EWR flight. Flight was canceled right before it took off. Gate agent was like "Sorry. Flight cancelled due to weather, here's a pamphlet with information and this is the exit door to lead you out of the departure area, we can't do anything for you." That wasn't the issue. The issue was I had purchased liquor at duty free and needed to return it. I very clearly asked the gate agent if going out that door would still leave me the opportunity to return it. "Yes, no problem". Well the door dumps you into the connecting area of YUL, leaving you no way to re-enter the airport without passing through customs back into Canada and then security to go back to your flight again, where you now have to check the bag with liquor in it. Gigantic pain in the ass. Wasted over two hours of my time from having to check and retrieve the bag. Fortunately, they were able to rebook me manually on the final flight out that day, automatically I would have been stuck 2 days.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight within X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline EU air passenger rights https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
  - tomp 8y ago
    Do these apply? Iceland isn’t in EU.
    - tallanvor 8y ago
      The EU rules apply to Iceland. The reason is that Iceland is in the EEA. Part of the rules for having free access to the market is that Iceland has to accept EU rules. Basically they get all of the regulations but have no seat at the table. Norway is in the same boat.
useful 8y ago
If the plane was big enough and flights were booked more than a year in advance they would use actuary tables to be better at overselling flights. I've worked for airlines so that they could do this, including Air Canada. Yield management is how airlines live and die.
- hinkley 8y ago
  I recall having a leg of my flight cancelled for mechanical issues. They sent the entire plane full of people to the ticket agent and somehow they miraculously found planes for everybody on the next two flights, same day, same airline. A few of us commented on how convenient it was that the plane needed maintenance and three flights on the same route were only 2/3rds full. What are the odds, he asked sarcastically.
  - useful 8y ago
    Airlines are built around operations and scheduling. Some disruption/reaccommodation software is quite advanced and even takes load factor, cost, status, and customer LTV into account. Being able to reorganize entire schedules onto other planes and other airlines in minutes while still maintaining a 1-3% profit margin is non-trivial.
gruez 8y ago
I get how overbooking is a good thing (by increasing utilization and decreasing prices), but the way it's implemented at most places (buried in the fine print and/or legalized by legislation) leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I'd be much more okay with overbooking if it was opt-in (or for that matter, opt out), with a clear cost that's conveyed to the passenger.
tomhoward 8y ago
It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific problem. Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at the gate awaiting boarding [this sentence was edited in response to kortilla's comment below]. Volantio's product applies sophisticated analysis to each flight's booking levels well before departure time (days or weeks before), and will send offers to passengers to offer incentives to transfer to less-full flights, allowing plenty of time for them to change their plans. So far the product seems to be having an impact for passengers [2], gate staff [3] and airline management [4]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16836991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16836991 [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qantas-flight-switch-overbooking-seats-passenger-gift-vouchers-a8738961.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qantas-... [3] https://www.volantio.com/alaska-airlines-improves-denied-boarding-processes-for-guests-and-front-line-staff/ https://www.volantio.com/alaska-airlines-improves-denied-boa... [4] https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/indigo-puts-tech-start-ups-at-the-heart-of-its-plan-to-become-global-player-119010600632_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/indigo-p... Disclosure: Volantio was a pivot from Adioso (YC W09), of which I was a co-founder. I'm no longer an active employee or significant shareholder. However I remain friends with the team and am pleased to see them doing well and solving an important problem.
- hndamien 8y ago
  Well done, Adioso was fantastic.
  - elyobo 8y ago
    Indeed - I still use it (among others) more or less any time I'm looking for flights. It was tomhoward's cofounder Fenn Bailey that also first introduced me to "microcaching" with nginx via some blog post many years back, a trick which has been of much use over the years.
un_montagnard 8y ago
Passengers would stop complaining or even start volunteering if Air Canada was offering them a monetary compensation for postponing their trip to the next flight. This is what happens in Europe and getting 300€ to wait 4 hours in an airport is not too bad if you're not in a hurry.
- wjjdjw 8y ago
  Thanks for making this clear. In the EU, I've been asked multiple times if I'm OK with flying on the next day. 300€ / 600€ (if +1500km) and a nice hotel are quite nice as a student. Never understood why overbooking is considered annoying in the US.
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    Because Canadians don't get that. We get a $25 meal voucher and a ticket on the next flight.
cameldrv 8y ago
I've had an extremely bad experience with Air Canada that's eerily consistent with this article. Upgrade to business at the ticket counter, assigned seats, and then a red light and a sad noise from the ticket machine when I tried to board. Then a torrent of excuses, blame shifting, and rude behavior. This really soured me on Air Canada.
- refurb 8y ago
  As a Canadian who flies a lot, Air Canada has absolutely the worst customer service. They make the “crappy” American carriers (United, etc) seem luxurious by comparison. I remember one time connecting in to Vancouver and asking if I could could jump on the earlier flight rather than waiting 3 hours. Done this multiple times with US carriers if there is room. What do they care if the seat would have been empty otherwise? I was informed by the AC agent that there would be a $175 fee for the ticket change. Plenty of other examples of rigidly following the rules even though it cost them nothing.
  - cperciva 8y ago
    Probably you made the mistake of saying the word "change". If you want to change your ticket, i.e. get a guaranteed seat on a different flight, that costs money. If you had asked to standby for the earlier flight, you would almost certainly have been told "ok we've put you on the list; check at the gate" with no charge.
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    This used to work in the past in the US. But last 5 years or so, every single time I've asked this with major carriers in the US, I've been quoted similarly high change fees as well.
    - dannyw 8y ago
      Did you use the word 'change' or 'standby'?
      - 8y ago
isuckatcoding 8y ago
In other news, capitalism is a thing. This is the system the world has come to accept. This kind of behavior is just a symptom of a larger problem with how corporations strive for profit over people.
raverbashing 8y ago
Wow what a complete irresponsible way of dealing with the issue. It doesn't beat United pulling a passenger out of the plane, but it's very bad. The correct way is of course to deal with this before the gate and arrange it then. "Sorry, our flight is overbooked, would you volunteer to take the next one with a compensation of $100?"
BlackFly 8y ago
Seems that nobody is reading the article. Yes, pretty much all airlines are overselling. However, Air Canada employees speaking on condition of anonymity are stating that business as usual for the airline is to string customers along until the last minute, even if it is known well in advance that they are not going to be boarding. That is to say, passengers with GTE on the gate indication of the boarding pass will not be boarding but are lied to and told that they will be assigned a seat at the gate. Regardless your views on overselling, you probably take a very different view about being lied to about your likelihood of boarding a flight as you check in.
- furyg3 8y ago
  Absolutely. To some degree I understand overselling†, and I also know that airlines don't know who's going to show or not, but passengers should be made aware and given options. With non-refundable tickets you're committed to the airlines, they should have a commitment to you. If they choose to oversell, they should be transparant and give you the option of adjusting your plans... Instead of pretenting you're on the flight but you're actually flying standby. Frequent travelers know that getting a boarding pass with a seat number actually a race they don't want to lose, and will hound the call center if there's a problem with online check-in. † Personally I think that airlines regulated and given two options for overselling flights: 1) If you miss your flight, and a paid passenger takes your place, you should be informed and not suffer financial consequences (re-booking fees, etc). 2) If the airlines has already sold a full flight and starts knowingly overselling, it should be communicated to the passenger when they buy the ticket ('priority standby' or something). This would, of course, make customers value these tickets less.
  - BlackFly 8y ago
    Yes, I can understand overselling as well, but it should be a gamble on the part of the airlines that they don't want to lose. It seems that in many places there are too few ramifications for losing this particular gamble. I think the EU regulations regarding denied boarding are pretty good (or at least a good start).
FearNotDaniel 8y ago
Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless somebody else fails to turn up; and I'd assumed that the European carriers probably do overbook but manage it at check in time; I've never seen or heard of anyone ever getting turned away at the gate when they already had a boarding pass.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined. It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough to airlines to abandon this practice. I am sympathetic for delays/cancellations for causes out of influence of an airline, but this is conscious risk taken by airline and big FU to travellers.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    > It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed No. The number of pax that show up is somewhat random, the number of seats on the plane is somewhat random (weight and balance, broken oxygen mask or seatbelt, higher priority pax such as crew that need to be ferried to a flight that could not otherwise go, etc.) To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful. Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? In a plane, you can't just have a few more people sit in the aisle. Now, like any stochastic problem, you assign weights to both suboptimal outcomes (empty seats, bumped pax), and optimise, which leads to modest overbooking. Now, most of the time everyone gets along (and more people than without modest overbooking), and sometimes some people are denied boarding. Some people need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and some people don't care if they're a day or two late. So you ask for volunteers and compensate. It's not only perfectly rational, but also perfectly moral. Why don't you get upset that people ever have to wait for surgery? Why don't we double the number of doctors and hospitals, so that always anytime someone needs surgery they can immediately get it? Well, because it's prohibitively expensive, and it's much more efficient to keep the facilities utilised as fully as possible, and shift around the demand (patients) a bit. Is that a deplorable strategy based on pure greed? No, it's a sensible optimisation to utilise scarce resources as well as we can. Talking of greed, do you know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Easy, start with a big fortune. Of course, regulation could make bumping pax even more expensive and thus change the calculation. That would probably lead to higher ticket prices and more (but emptier) planes in the air. Is that preferable to the current "pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed"? EDIT to add: This is assuming decent communication, and decent compensation for bumped pax (as is the case in Europe). I'm not really familiar with the situation in Northern America, if they just bump pax without compensation and/or lie to them, that's clearly not good, either.
alkonaut 8y ago
Overselling is standard practice in the industry. It's also not a secret. Any passenger on any airline should be able to ask any member of staff of that airline and get the same answer: yes we sell more than 100% of the seats, and if we didn't you would have paid more for yours. I don't mind this at all so long as my compensation for not being allowed to board is high enough. That is: who is allowed to board should not be decided by the airline. It should be decided by the airline asking passengers who can accept taking the next plane. "We have an overbooking of 3 passengers, passengers willing to take the next flight for €300 please contact gate 49.". I have seen this work. I have seen people rush to get that compensation check (presumably because they had no time to keep, or even a long enough connection that it doesn't matter for their final arrival time). If I'm going to a wedding and can't be late, I'm not going to volonteer to take the next plane. Obviously: if the airline randomly selects passengers to not board, without flexibility or "auctioning", that is absolutely unacceptable. That will invariably lead to the passenger selected being the person that can't be late for that wedding being the one booted. Basically: if there is even a rumor of your airline doing that - find another airline and let them know.
- iancarroll 8y ago
  Indeed. In the USA, especially after the United debacle, "voluntary denied-boardings" have become quite profitable for those that take them. When UA/etc say that they have increased their maximum compensation per person to $10,000, they aren't kidding, and this does get offered (though usually it's filled at lower amounts.) I've taken 4-figure VDBs and been quite happy with the result.
  - dannyw 8y ago
    Impressed it ever has gotten to that far. I've taken a $500 + hotel and thought that was a deal!
NikolaNovak 8y ago
I am not sure how much article is misrepresenting the seriousness. I travel air Canada 30+ times a year. GTE strictly means what it says - you don't have seat assigned and you may get one at the gate. They cannot help you at the checkin until they know who all is boarding. So from that perspective strictly, I understand that sending them to gate to await their destiny,rather than try to resolve at the checkin counter. At the checkin,you are a Schroedinger passenger - just don't know if you'll make it or not. There's nothing they can do to you there. I do not believe it is correct to imply that GTE absolutely means you WON'T be boarded and thus its a complete lie. I have had that on my pass and have boarded - granted I have a bit of priority (lowest status level). Colleagues without status have had same experience. You just don't know. Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early checkin.
- mattkrause 8y ago
  > you may get one at the gate. There’s a world of difference between “your seat will be assigned at the gate” and “your seat may be....” The former, which is what I think most airlines actually say, strongly implies that you do have a seat, though they are still determining which one it is. The latter is often what they really mean. If you are reasonably savvy, the fact that this is unusual ought to clue you in. However, that signal now is a bit diluted with all of the games airlines play to get you to pay extra to choose a seat so....
- K9DRDOh 8y ago
  "Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early checkin." What is not clear from your statement is that, if you try to check in online, you must pay for seat selection, unless You check in to the website 'exactly' 24 hours before your flight, even a few minutes earlier you have to pay extra just to get a damn seat. there is no option for "I dont care just give me any seat" you do not have the option of checking in and choosing a seat at the time of purchasing your ticket. I dont know about you but that feels like they just want to charge me extra unless I jump through ridiculous hoops just to get a seat for a ticket that I have already paid for. I have been put on GTE for exactly this reason at least 6 times in the last year, and have not eventually been given a seat only once and bumped to the next flight
lsv1 8y ago
This practice is used in almost every industry with finite inventory by Revenue Management teams where there is opportunity to pre-empt a booking, slot, or (where I am most familiar) a tv spot. I recall working for television systems management and having a revenue and yield optimization consultant from the airline industry present to our company with methods we could use to increased revenue by booking even more spots than we had and either pre-empting more low value TV spots with automatic optimization and moving of the spots, or simply taking more time away from marketing or promotional ads from the network. Most of the practices recommended by this consultant we had already implemented, but there were some really neat recommendations specifically from the airline industry in order to maximize revenue, most of them revolved around overbooking. Eligible TV spots would be automatically moved forward (front-loaded) into weekly rotation selling options (groups of program sold under the same name and price). I could go on forever, but I suppose as a general comment regarding revenue management and yield optimization there is nothing which surprises me about these practices.
- skywhopper 8y ago
  I think the important thing here is just honesty in the business practice. Presumably you were upfront with your clients about what they were actually purchasing and what the risks were. The article here is not about overselling per se but about lying about it.
kbos87 8y ago
I was on an Air Canada flight recently, and I swore it would be my last. Every step of the experience of buying a seat and checking in was tainted with growth hacking BS, and I felt nickel & dimed in ways other airlines are probably rushing to catch up to. - Choosing ANY seat in economy or getting any transparency into where they are putting you comes at an additional charge. I haven't seen this before, not sure how common it's become. - While at the gate, I received a push asking if I wanted to BID on an upgrade to first class. I could "offer" anywhere between $450 and $900 and see whether or not I'd snag a better seat. Air travel has long since become an anti-consumer race to the bottom. Capitalism has failed here.
pdx_flyer 8y ago
Overselling is very common, especially with certain airlines on certain routes. For example, British Airways heavily oversells their LHR-USA flights in business, premium economy, and economy. This often means that business class passengers get upgrades to F, premium economy fills business and if necessary, they can bring economy passengers forward. This strategy works for them because they have a ton of very large planes on some routes that can go through spurts of heavy loads.
K9DRDOh 8y ago
Air Canada is one of the worst airlines I have ever had the displeasure to fly. I had this exact experience a few weeks ago with Air Canada out of Vancouver. I ended up with the dreaded GTE on my boarding pass, buy essentially refusing to be extorted ( paying for preferred seating) You would think, buying the damn ticket entitles you to a seat, but not in Air Canada, unless you are willing to pay extra. the most recent time I had this issue, The office travel coordinator booked my flight, I got an email asking me to go online and select a seat. except the system wanted to charge me $15 to select a preferred seat, and no option to select a seat without paying extra. I actually called customer support and they told me, the only way you can be guaranteed a seat, without paying extra for it is to wait and login to their website exactly 24 hours before the flight and manually choose a seat. otherwise you will not be guaranteed a seat and will be on standby and assigned a seat at the gate. It felt like extortion, and is one of the sleaziest companies I have ever dealt with. unfortunately, I cannot book my own business trips, and it takes a while for the new travel coordinators to believe me when I tell them "I would rather crawl across the country then fly on Air Canada"

135 points by stygiansonic 8y ago

Supposedly this is a company internal document[0], which states: Air Canada Revenue Management’s team is tasked with ensuring that the maximum revenue potential is made on each and every flight we operate. As it is known that a certain percentage of confirmed customers do not show for their flights, it is sometimes necessary to sell more seats than aircraft capacity. Revenue Management uses a sophisticated system that uses “day of” and historical information to monitor all flights in Air Canada’s system, calculating the acceptable level of oversell risk. 0. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5729064-Denied-Boarding-DBC-Policy-and-Procedures.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5729064-Denied-Board...

Johnny555 8y ago
All airlines do this... at least all USA airlines. Hotels do it too -- in the 90's I worked for a hotel chain and helped integrate an airline vendor's revenue management system into the hotels central reservation system. Just like the airlines, hotels use past booking and seasonality/special event data to figure out how much to charge for rooms and how much to overbook to maximize revenue. Prior to the software, hotel managers did it manually. Pretty much every industry that sells products subject to spoilage does it too -- a grocery store determines how much bread to order to avoid throwing away spoiled bread that didn't sell before it spoiled while avoiding running out (the equivalent of overbooking - the consumer wants it but can't have it). But grocery stores and airlines have the opposite problem - airlines can't control supply (in the short term), they have a fixed amount of product to sell so they primarily use pricing to control demand. Grocery stores control supply (within reason) so if demand changes, they can just order more or less product (but they can also alter pricing).
cjbprime 8y ago
That's just a description of overselling. What's unique to Air Canada about this story? Do the other airlines do this too?
- freeone3000 8y ago
  Service staff appear to not make it clear to customers that unless your boarding pass has a seat number on it that you don't have a seat.
  - vkou 8y ago
    No airline I have ever flown with has ever made this clear to me. Ever. Maybe if you know what magic words to ask, and specifically ask them - but at that point, you should already know the answer.
    - dannyw 8y ago
      For the record, I've got the dreaded GATE many times, and never been denied boarding.

jonny_eh 8y ago

Doesn't every airline do this?

arkitaip 8y ago
I have never seen this happen in Sweden.

devoply 8y ago

There should be a law to disclose this sort of information when you purchase a ticket... as well as the probability that you will be denied passage on the flight you are booking... In fact you could even make it so that they tell you the alternative you will be offered if that event occurs. They could even offer a premium price to guarantee your flight. The whole point is to make this process more predictable for travelers. The tech exists, only the political will to force its use is necessary.

vkou 8y ago
The alternative that you're offered, 99% of the time, is a seat on the next flight.
- bpye 8y ago
  Which is sort of workable if you are taking a direct flight to some location within the same continent and the next flight is in a couple of hours... If the next flight is the next day then that is pretty unacceptable.
  - peteretep 8y ago
    Depends if they’re offering a hotel too. I’ve been voluntarily bumped more than once when I didn’t have anywhere I needed to be, and the compensation was definitely worth it
geofft 8y ago
I believe this is all in the contract of carriage, except for the probability (I'm not sure how you'd make a law mandating accurate estimates...). The problem is once you make laws to disclose all the things people need to know (and, to be clear, I think they genuinely do need to know a bunch of stuff) it turns into five pages of fine print.
Johnny555 8y ago
They could even offer a premium price to guarantee your flight They do -- they call it a "full fare ticket" -- airlines bend over backwards to accommodate these full fare fliers, even if it means bumping a paid economy passenger from the flight. Though it's a pretty steep fee -- usually several times more than the restricted fare.

ageek123 8y ago

Wait, there are people who don't realize that when they can't get an assigned seat when they book the ticket (and it's not because they bought a special fare that doesn't allow a reserved seats), it's because the flight is oversold and they will be waitlisted for a seat? Every airline does this.

Johnny555 8y ago
That's not always what it means when you have no seat assignment, especially with codeshares. I've bought tickets that had no assigned seat until checkin even though the flight was undersold.
peteretep 8y ago
This is that whole feigned surprise thing that Recurse Center bans, isn’t it?

geofft 8y ago

This seems like standard practice for US airlines, including the part where checking in and going through seat assignment means you have a seat (because it indicates you're unlikely to be a no-show). What's different here? Are they communicating to passengers differently? Are they overselling much more aggressively than US carriers / worse at predicting? Do fewer Air Canada passengers accept offers to take a later flight, or do they fly routes where that doesn't work?

jerkstate 8y ago

Overselling airline seats is pretty typical, but is there any reason for the check-in agent to give the ticketholder false hope? That just seems like passing the buck to the gate agent.

Johnny555 8y ago
To sell the seat? If they tell the customer "Well, we're not sure if you have a seat, go ask the gate agent", then some customers will not want to bother and will cancel or change their flight -- so the airline goes from an overbooking situation to an underbooking situation, which costs the airline money.
- jerkstate 8y ago
  Well I have checked in on oversold flights before but never has a check in agent ever told me "don't worry about it, you'll get a seat for sure" - they have always been honest about how the process will work at the gate and usually give me a decent guess at the likelihood that I'll get a seat, offer to rebook (usually you have to ask to have them look for flights on other carriers, but they are required to do that if possible), but they usually can't offer as many incentives (miles, vouchers) there like they can at the gate. What this check in agent is claiming to do on Air Canadas behalf just sounds unnecessarily cruel.
  - hinkley 8y ago
    I did get that assurance once, but I was flying to see a family member in the ICU at Christmas. Can’t recall now if they asked for volunteers but I do recall the complete lack of wiggle words calmed me down.

jtchang 8y ago

I'm not surprised airlines do this. I don't think it is just Air Canada. In a way it makes sense but it does make me think they are a bit greedy. If someone buys a ticket and does not show up for a flight then usually they don't get a refund/credit (or a crappy one: I'm looking at you United). But now the airline has an empty seat. The best thing to do is fill it. But you can't fill it the last moment so you need to overbook. But if you overbook too much then you need to start bumping people off. So the airline gets to keep all the revenue from the overbooking as well as the fees for the refund which can be substantial. It's a bit like double dipping.

skookumchuck 8y ago
If airplanes routinely fly with empty seats, that means they need more airplanes flying to move the passengers. This isn't very environmentally friendly. People should support airplanes flying full.
- Firadeoclus 8y ago
  Full-ish, yes. But optimising for efficiency always comes at a cost to resilience, and bumping passengers at the last minute has real environmental and wellbeing costs, too.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    > wellbeing Ok, so environmentalism doesn't matter if it's inconvenient.
jnordwick 8y ago
The US airlines make on avg $17.75 per passenger with a profit margin of about 9%. http://money.com/money/5158363/airline-profit-per-passenger/ http://money.com/money/5158363/airline-profit-per-passenger/ That's pretty far from greedy.
- throw_away2 8y ago
  The very next sentence after that quote is: > This per-passenger profit is roughly double what airlines around the world make per passenger, according to the International Air Transport Association

theabsurdman 8y ago

Overselling wouldn't seem as egregious if they didn't then go ahead and do stuff like this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/air-canada-reneges-on-dollar800-voucher-after-traveler-volunteers-plane-seat/ar-BBTbaP3 https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/air-canada-reneges-on-...

joecool1029 8y ago

On topic: Depends on where you are. I was on an overbooked flight with WOW in Iceland a few months back, they ultimately ended up getting me a seat, but there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight within X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline. I'll try to dig it up again... Somewhat unrelated but I had a terrible time with Air Canada a couple weeks ago for a YUL > EWR flight. Flight was canceled right before it took off. Gate agent was like "Sorry. Flight cancelled due to weather, here's a pamphlet with information and this is the exit door to lead you out of the departure area, we can't do anything for you." That wasn't the issue. The issue was I had purchased liquor at duty free and needed to return it. I very clearly asked the gate agent if going out that door would still leave me the opportunity to return it. "Yes, no problem". Well the door dumps you into the connecting area of YUL, leaving you no way to re-enter the airport without passing through customs back into Canada and then security to go back to your flight again, where you now have to check the bag with liquor in it. Gigantic pain in the ass. Wasted over two hours of my time from having to check and retrieve the bag. Fortunately, they were able to rebook me manually on the final flight out that day, automatically I would have been stuck 2 days.

kalleboo 8y ago
> there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight within X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline EU air passenger rights https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
- tomp 8y ago
  Do these apply? Iceland isn’t in EU.
  - tallanvor 8y ago
    The EU rules apply to Iceland. The reason is that Iceland is in the EEA. Part of the rules for having free access to the market is that Iceland has to accept EU rules. Basically they get all of the regulations but have no seat at the table. Norway is in the same boat.

useful 8y ago

If the plane was big enough and flights were booked more than a year in advance they would use actuary tables to be better at overselling flights. I've worked for airlines so that they could do this, including Air Canada. Yield management is how airlines live and die.

hinkley 8y ago
I recall having a leg of my flight cancelled for mechanical issues. They sent the entire plane full of people to the ticket agent and somehow they miraculously found planes for everybody on the next two flights, same day, same airline. A few of us commented on how convenient it was that the plane needed maintenance and three flights on the same route were only 2/3rds full. What are the odds, he asked sarcastically.
- useful 8y ago
  Airlines are built around operations and scheduling. Some disruption/reaccommodation software is quite advanced and even takes load factor, cost, status, and customer LTV into account. Being able to reorganize entire schedules onto other planes and other airlines in minutes while still maintaining a 1-3% profit margin is non-trivial.

gruez 8y ago

I get how overbooking is a good thing (by increasing utilization and decreasing prices), but the way it's implemented at most places (buried in the fine print and/or legalized by legislation) leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I'd be much more okay with overbooking if it was opt-in (or for that matter, opt out), with a clear cost that's conveyed to the passenger.

tomhoward 8y ago

It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific problem. Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at the gate awaiting boarding [this sentence was edited in response to kortilla's comment below]. Volantio's product applies sophisticated analysis to each flight's booking levels well before departure time (days or weeks before), and will send offers to passengers to offer incentives to transfer to less-full flights, allowing plenty of time for them to change their plans. So far the product seems to be having an impact for passengers [2], gate staff [3] and airline management [4]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16836991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16836991 [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qantas-flight-switch-overbooking-seats-passenger-gift-vouchers-a8738961.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qantas-... [3] https://www.volantio.com/alaska-airlines-improves-denied-boarding-processes-for-guests-and-front-line-staff/ https://www.volantio.com/alaska-airlines-improves-denied-boa... [4] https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/indigo-puts-tech-start-ups-at-the-heart-of-its-plan-to-become-global-player-119010600632_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/indigo-p... Disclosure: Volantio was a pivot from Adioso (YC W09), of which I was a co-founder. I'm no longer an active employee or significant shareholder. However I remain friends with the team and am pleased to see them doing well and solving an important problem.

hndamien 8y ago
Well done, Adioso was fantastic.
- elyobo 8y ago
  Indeed - I still use it (among others) more or less any time I'm looking for flights. It was tomhoward's cofounder Fenn Bailey that also first introduced me to "microcaching" with nginx via some blog post many years back, a trick which has been of much use over the years.

un_montagnard 8y ago

Passengers would stop complaining or even start volunteering if Air Canada was offering them a monetary compensation for postponing their trip to the next flight. This is what happens in Europe and getting 300€ to wait 4 hours in an airport is not too bad if you're not in a hurry.

wjjdjw 8y ago
Thanks for making this clear. In the EU, I've been asked multiple times if I'm OK with flying on the next day. 300€ / 600€ (if +1500km) and a nice hotel are quite nice as a student. Never understood why overbooking is considered annoying in the US.
- freeone3000 8y ago
  Because Canadians don't get that. We get a $25 meal voucher and a ticket on the next flight.

cameldrv 8y ago

I've had an extremely bad experience with Air Canada that's eerily consistent with this article. Upgrade to business at the ticket counter, assigned seats, and then a red light and a sad noise from the ticket machine when I tried to board. Then a torrent of excuses, blame shifting, and rude behavior. This really soured me on Air Canada.

refurb 8y ago
As a Canadian who flies a lot, Air Canada has absolutely the worst customer service. They make the “crappy” American carriers (United, etc) seem luxurious by comparison. I remember one time connecting in to Vancouver and asking if I could could jump on the earlier flight rather than waiting 3 hours. Done this multiple times with US carriers if there is room. What do they care if the seat would have been empty otherwise? I was informed by the AC agent that there would be a $175 fee for the ticket change. Plenty of other examples of rigidly following the rules even though it cost them nothing.
- cperciva 8y ago
  Probably you made the mistake of saying the word "change". If you want to change your ticket, i.e. get a guaranteed seat on a different flight, that costs money. If you had asked to standby for the earlier flight, you would almost certainly have been told "ok we've put you on the list; check at the gate" with no charge.
- TomVDB 8y ago
  This used to work in the past in the US. But last 5 years or so, every single time I've asked this with major carriers in the US, I've been quoted similarly high change fees as well.
  - dannyw 8y ago
    Did you use the word 'change' or 'standby'?
    - 8y ago

isuckatcoding 8y ago

In other news, capitalism is a thing. This is the system the world has come to accept. This kind of behavior is just a symptom of a larger problem with how corporations strive for profit over people.

raverbashing 8y ago

Wow what a complete irresponsible way of dealing with the issue. It doesn't beat United pulling a passenger out of the plane, but it's very bad. The correct way is of course to deal with this before the gate and arrange it then. "Sorry, our flight is overbooked, would you volunteer to take the next one with a compensation of $100?"

BlackFly 8y ago

Seems that nobody is reading the article. Yes, pretty much all airlines are overselling. However, Air Canada employees speaking on condition of anonymity are stating that business as usual for the airline is to string customers along until the last minute, even if it is known well in advance that they are not going to be boarding. That is to say, passengers with GTE on the gate indication of the boarding pass will not be boarding but are lied to and told that they will be assigned a seat at the gate. Regardless your views on overselling, you probably take a very different view about being lied to about your likelihood of boarding a flight as you check in.

furyg3 8y ago
Absolutely. To some degree I understand overselling†, and I also know that airlines don't know who's going to show or not, but passengers should be made aware and given options. With non-refundable tickets you're committed to the airlines, they should have a commitment to you. If they choose to oversell, they should be transparant and give you the option of adjusting your plans... Instead of pretenting you're on the flight but you're actually flying standby. Frequent travelers know that getting a boarding pass with a seat number actually a race they don't want to lose, and will hound the call center if there's a problem with online check-in. † Personally I think that airlines regulated and given two options for overselling flights: 1) If you miss your flight, and a paid passenger takes your place, you should be informed and not suffer financial consequences (re-booking fees, etc). 2) If the airlines has already sold a full flight and starts knowingly overselling, it should be communicated to the passenger when they buy the ticket ('priority standby' or something). This would, of course, make customers value these tickets less.
- BlackFly 8y ago
  Yes, I can understand overselling as well, but it should be a gamble on the part of the airlines that they don't want to lose. It seems that in many places there are too few ramifications for losing this particular gamble. I think the EU regulations regarding denied boarding are pretty good (or at least a good start).

FearNotDaniel 8y ago

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless somebody else fails to turn up; and I'd assumed that the European carriers probably do overbook but manage it at check in time; I've never seen or heard of anyone ever getting turned away at the gate when they already had a boarding pass.

saiya-jin 8y ago
It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined. It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough to airlines to abandon this practice. I am sympathetic for delays/cancellations for causes out of influence of an airline, but this is conscious risk taken by airline and big FU to travellers.
- FabHK 8y ago
  > It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed No. The number of pax that show up is somewhat random, the number of seats on the plane is somewhat random (weight and balance, broken oxygen mask or seatbelt, higher priority pax such as crew that need to be ferried to a flight that could not otherwise go, etc.) To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful. Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? In a plane, you can't just have a few more people sit in the aisle. Now, like any stochastic problem, you assign weights to both suboptimal outcomes (empty seats, bumped pax), and optimise, which leads to modest overbooking. Now, most of the time everyone gets along (and more people than without modest overbooking), and sometimes some people are denied boarding. Some people need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and some people don't care if they're a day or two late. So you ask for volunteers and compensate. It's not only perfectly rational, but also perfectly moral. Why don't you get upset that people ever have to wait for surgery? Why don't we double the number of doctors and hospitals, so that always anytime someone needs surgery they can immediately get it? Well, because it's prohibitively expensive, and it's much more efficient to keep the facilities utilised as fully as possible, and shift around the demand (patients) a bit. Is that a deplorable strategy based on pure greed? No, it's a sensible optimisation to utilise scarce resources as well as we can. Talking of greed, do you know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Easy, start with a big fortune. Of course, regulation could make bumping pax even more expensive and thus change the calculation. That would probably lead to higher ticket prices and more (but emptier) planes in the air. Is that preferable to the current "pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed"? EDIT to add: This is assuming decent communication, and decent compensation for bumped pax (as is the case in Europe). I'm not really familiar with the situation in Northern America, if they just bump pax without compensation and/or lie to them, that's clearly not good, either.

alkonaut 8y ago

Overselling is standard practice in the industry. It's also not a secret. Any passenger on any airline should be able to ask any member of staff of that airline and get the same answer: yes we sell more than 100% of the seats, and if we didn't you would have paid more for yours. I don't mind this at all so long as my compensation for not being allowed to board is high enough. That is: who is allowed to board should not be decided by the airline. It should be decided by the airline asking passengers who can accept taking the next plane. "We have an overbooking of 3 passengers, passengers willing to take the next flight for €300 please contact gate 49.". I have seen this work. I have seen people rush to get that compensation check (presumably because they had no time to keep, or even a long enough connection that it doesn't matter for their final arrival time). If I'm going to a wedding and can't be late, I'm not going to volonteer to take the next plane. Obviously: if the airline randomly selects passengers to not board, without flexibility or "auctioning", that is absolutely unacceptable. That will invariably lead to the passenger selected being the person that can't be late for that wedding being the one booted. Basically: if there is even a rumor of your airline doing that - find another airline and let them know.

iancarroll 8y ago
Indeed. In the USA, especially after the United debacle, "voluntary denied-boardings" have become quite profitable for those that take them. When UA/etc say that they have increased their maximum compensation per person to $10,000, they aren't kidding, and this does get offered (though usually it's filled at lower amounts.) I've taken 4-figure VDBs and been quite happy with the result.
- dannyw 8y ago
  Impressed it ever has gotten to that far. I've taken a $500 + hotel and thought that was a deal!

NikolaNovak 8y ago

I am not sure how much article is misrepresenting the seriousness. I travel air Canada 30+ times a year. GTE strictly means what it says - you don't have seat assigned and you may get one at the gate. They cannot help you at the checkin until they know who all is boarding. So from that perspective strictly, I understand that sending them to gate to await their destiny,rather than try to resolve at the checkin counter. At the checkin,you are a Schroedinger passenger - just don't know if you'll make it or not. There's nothing they can do to you there. I do not believe it is correct to imply that GTE absolutely means you WON'T be boarded and thus its a complete lie. I have had that on my pass and have boarded - granted I have a bit of priority (lowest status level). Colleagues without status have had same experience. You just don't know. Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early checkin.

mattkrause 8y ago
> you may get one at the gate. There’s a world of difference between “your seat will be assigned at the gate” and “your seat may be....” The former, which is what I think most airlines actually say, strongly implies that you do have a seat, though they are still determining which one it is. The latter is often what they really mean. If you are reasonably savvy, the fact that this is unusual ought to clue you in. However, that signal now is a bit diluted with all of the games airlines play to get you to pay extra to choose a seat so....
K9DRDOh 8y ago
"Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early checkin." What is not clear from your statement is that, if you try to check in online, you must pay for seat selection, unless You check in to the website 'exactly' 24 hours before your flight, even a few minutes earlier you have to pay extra just to get a damn seat. there is no option for "I dont care just give me any seat" you do not have the option of checking in and choosing a seat at the time of purchasing your ticket. I dont know about you but that feels like they just want to charge me extra unless I jump through ridiculous hoops just to get a seat for a ticket that I have already paid for. I have been put on GTE for exactly this reason at least 6 times in the last year, and have not eventually been given a seat only once and bumped to the next flight

lsv1 8y ago

This practice is used in almost every industry with finite inventory by Revenue Management teams where there is opportunity to pre-empt a booking, slot, or (where I am most familiar) a tv spot. I recall working for television systems management and having a revenue and yield optimization consultant from the airline industry present to our company with methods we could use to increased revenue by booking even more spots than we had and either pre-empting more low value TV spots with automatic optimization and moving of the spots, or simply taking more time away from marketing or promotional ads from the network. Most of the practices recommended by this consultant we had already implemented, but there were some really neat recommendations specifically from the airline industry in order to maximize revenue, most of them revolved around overbooking. Eligible TV spots would be automatically moved forward (front-loaded) into weekly rotation selling options (groups of program sold under the same name and price). I could go on forever, but I suppose as a general comment regarding revenue management and yield optimization there is nothing which surprises me about these practices.

skywhopper 8y ago
I think the important thing here is just honesty in the business practice. Presumably you were upfront with your clients about what they were actually purchasing and what the risks were. The article here is not about overselling per se but about lying about it.

kbos87 8y ago

I was on an Air Canada flight recently, and I swore it would be my last. Every step of the experience of buying a seat and checking in was tainted with growth hacking BS, and I felt nickel & dimed in ways other airlines are probably rushing to catch up to. - Choosing ANY seat in economy or getting any transparency into where they are putting you comes at an additional charge. I haven't seen this before, not sure how common it's become. - While at the gate, I received a push asking if I wanted to BID on an upgrade to first class. I could "offer" anywhere between $450 and $900 and see whether or not I'd snag a better seat. Air travel has long since become an anti-consumer race to the bottom. Capitalism has failed here.

pdx_flyer 8y ago

Overselling is very common, especially with certain airlines on certain routes. For example, British Airways heavily oversells their LHR-USA flights in business, premium economy, and economy. This often means that business class passengers get upgrades to F, premium economy fills business and if necessary, they can bring economy passengers forward. This strategy works for them because they have a ton of very large planes on some routes that can go through spurts of heavy loads.

K9DRDOh 8y ago

Air Canada is one of the worst airlines I have ever had the displeasure to fly. I had this exact experience a few weeks ago with Air Canada out of Vancouver. I ended up with the dreaded GTE on my boarding pass, buy essentially refusing to be extorted ( paying for preferred seating) You would think, buying the damn ticket entitles you to a seat, but not in Air Canada, unless you are willing to pay extra. the most recent time I had this issue, The office travel coordinator booked my flight, I got an email asking me to go online and select a seat. except the system wanted to charge me $15 to select a preferred seat, and no option to select a seat without paying extra. I actually called customer support and they told me, the only way you can be guaranteed a seat, without paying extra for it is to wait and login to their website exactly 24 hours before the flight and manually choose a seat. otherwise you will not be guaranteed a seat and will be on standby and assigned a seat at the gate. It felt like extortion, and is one of the sleaziest companies I have ever dealt with. unfortunately, I cannot book my own business trips, and it takes a while for the new travel coordinators to believe me when I tell them "I would rather crawl across the country then fly on Air Canada"