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Wayland is flourishing - everywhere except among Nvidia proprietary driver users. In reality it's them who are dying on their hill, left behind on crappy old so

Wayland is flourishing - everywhere except among Nvidia proprietary driver users. In reality it's them who are dying on their hill, left behind on crappy old software.

bubblethink 8y ago
Nvidia's primary Linux user base cares about cuda. As long as those needs are met, I don't see much changing in the short term. Gaming and other use cases are still insignificant in terms of numbers.
gpm 8y ago
No, in reality desktop Linux, including wayland, is floundering. This is contributing to that floundering by splitting the effort, create an environment filled with vitriol on both sides, making it harder for things like games to say they support the set of things called "Linux", etc.
- ddevault 8y ago
  I'm not here to make Linux succeed. I'm here to make good software. Users who know better will use Linux and users who don't won't. Either way Linux will keep on trucking, as it has for a very long time. It shows no sign of stopping.
  - kakarot 8y ago
    I'm using Wayland and love it and what it represents for the future of Linux. Desktop security is more important than supporting NVIDIA's hostile products. Thanks for your work on wlroots and other software I've enjoyed. I imagine I'll be switching to sway soon as well. There was something preventing me from adopting it yet but I can't remember what it was. I believe it was on the roadmap though. I'm glad you posted this article because my new year's initiative is to donate to a couple dozen FOSS projects and you definitely deserve some of that.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Given that Wayland still doesn't properly support remote desktop, a feature that has been working continuously in Windows for decades through tons of graphics model changes, I'm not sure I'd play the "users who know better" card.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      This is explicitly addressed in the article. Thanks for taking the time to read it before leaving your comment!
      - int_19h 8y ago
        No, it is not. The article basically just says, "yeah, we don't support remoting, someone got to make it work". For users, the second part is redundant, because the only thing that matters to them is that remoting doesn't work, and they can't really fix it on their own. That aside, I have to say that if your responses are representative of the overall attitude towards such questions in the community, I doubt things are going to improve anytime soon.
  - p1necone 8y ago
    Thank you.
- phkahler 8y ago
  Linux desktop is thriving in technical terms. I like what Wayland has brought. There is NO split effort. The direction is clear and everyone is on board except nvidia.
atemerev 8y ago
Really? Nvidia is the dominant GPU hardware manufacturer, because of CUDA. You cannot do deep learning without CUDA (OpenCL is not nearly as productive for development). Without deep learning, you are out of the game in the most exciting fields of software engineering. So for many software engineering professionals, Nvidia is absolutely the only option, and it is everything else that has to adapt to it. Thankfully, Nvidia makes Linux drivers, otherwise I would have to (gasp) use Windows as my development machine. Unfortunately, Wayland doesn’t work. I love Wayland and its clean API, but I can’t use anything else except Nvidia, because there is no CUDA.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  Deep learning has nothing to do with Wayland and is pretty uninteresting in my opinion. It's a matter of perspective. And fine: if you have a difference of opinion, just use X.
  - coffeecat 8y ago
    I do GPGPU work and I require the proprietary nvidia driver, which I use only for CUDA computations. I'm also excited about wayland, would like to start using sway as my daily driver, and have even considered contributing. However, your attitude, and the comments you make about nvidia users, makes me feel completely unwelcome in the sway/wlroots/wayland community (despite using an Intel GPU for graphics!). Am I correct in this perception, and do you believe your attitude positively affects the health of your projects?
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      You're correct that Nvidia proprietary driver users are unwelcome. We lay this out explicitly in our GitHub issue template, in fact. If you use that Intel GPU instead we'll get along swimmingly.
      - hutzlibu 8y ago
        So you are feeling self-righteous and looking down on people who have the wrong hardware? Hardware that is wrong, because the (market dominant) company behind it, does not make a open-source driver? I mean, you do realize, that Open-Source is sadly not the norm and rather something very odd to traditional industries? So to people who do not worship the GPL(or even heard of it and just want their software to work), you might be a bit offputting. Which might not be the way to increase the significance of Open Source. Which is a bit sad. Because I love OS and yes I know about the GPL etc. - but even I am put of by that arrogance and ignorance. So I am not saying you need to support X or whatever, but maybe do not direct your hate of Nvidia to the users of Nvidia. Maybe they are even new to this. Because those would then just shake their head and go away, (back to windows). Hurray.
int_19h 8y ago
Is there any distro using Wayland out of the box, aside from Fedora?

Wayland is flourishing - everywhere except among Nvidia proprietary driver users. In reality it's them who are dying on their hill, left behind on crappy old software.

bubblethink 8y ago

Nvidia's primary Linux user base cares about cuda. As long as those needs are met, I don't see much changing in the short term. Gaming and other use cases are still insignificant in terms of numbers.

gpm 8y ago

No, in reality desktop Linux, including wayland, is floundering. This is contributing to that floundering by splitting the effort, create an environment filled with vitriol on both sides, making it harder for things like games to say they support the set of things called "Linux", etc.

ddevault 8y ago
I'm not here to make Linux succeed. I'm here to make good software. Users who know better will use Linux and users who don't won't. Either way Linux will keep on trucking, as it has for a very long time. It shows no sign of stopping.
- kakarot 8y ago
  I'm using Wayland and love it and what it represents for the future of Linux. Desktop security is more important than supporting NVIDIA's hostile products. Thanks for your work on wlroots and other software I've enjoyed. I imagine I'll be switching to sway soon as well. There was something preventing me from adopting it yet but I can't remember what it was. I believe it was on the roadmap though. I'm glad you posted this article because my new year's initiative is to donate to a couple dozen FOSS projects and you definitely deserve some of that.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 8y ago
  Given that Wayland still doesn't properly support remote desktop, a feature that has been working continuously in Windows for decades through tons of graphics model changes, I'm not sure I'd play the "users who know better" card.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    This is explicitly addressed in the article. Thanks for taking the time to read it before leaving your comment!
    - int_19h 8y ago
      No, it is not. The article basically just says, "yeah, we don't support remoting, someone got to make it work". For users, the second part is redundant, because the only thing that matters to them is that remoting doesn't work, and they can't really fix it on their own. That aside, I have to say that if your responses are representative of the overall attitude towards such questions in the community, I doubt things are going to improve anytime soon.
- p1necone 8y ago
  Thank you.
phkahler 8y ago
Linux desktop is thriving in technical terms. I like what Wayland has brought. There is NO split effort. The direction is clear and everyone is on board except nvidia.

atemerev 8y ago

Really? Nvidia is the dominant GPU hardware manufacturer, because of CUDA. You cannot do deep learning without CUDA (OpenCL is not nearly as productive for development). Without deep learning, you are out of the game in the most exciting fields of software engineering. So for many software engineering professionals, Nvidia is absolutely the only option, and it is everything else that has to adapt to it. Thankfully, Nvidia makes Linux drivers, otherwise I would have to (gasp) use Windows as my development machine. Unfortunately, Wayland doesn’t work. I love Wayland and its clean API, but I can’t use anything else except Nvidia, because there is no CUDA.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
Deep learning has nothing to do with Wayland and is pretty uninteresting in my opinion. It's a matter of perspective. And fine: if you have a difference of opinion, just use X.
- coffeecat 8y ago
  I do GPGPU work and I require the proprietary nvidia driver, which I use only for CUDA computations. I'm also excited about wayland, would like to start using sway as my daily driver, and have even considered contributing. However, your attitude, and the comments you make about nvidia users, makes me feel completely unwelcome in the sway/wlroots/wayland community (despite using an Intel GPU for graphics!). Am I correct in this perception, and do you believe your attitude positively affects the health of your projects?
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    You're correct that Nvidia proprietary driver users are unwelcome. We lay this out explicitly in our GitHub issue template, in fact. If you use that Intel GPU instead we'll get along swimmingly.
    - hutzlibu 8y ago
      So you are feeling self-righteous and looking down on people who have the wrong hardware? Hardware that is wrong, because the (market dominant) company behind it, does not make a open-source driver? I mean, you do realize, that Open-Source is sadly not the norm and rather something very odd to traditional industries? So to people who do not worship the GPL(or even heard of it and just want their software to work), you might be a bit offputting. Which might not be the way to increase the significance of Open Source. Which is a bit sad. Because I love OS and yes I know about the GPL etc. - but even I am put of by that arrogance and ignorance. So I am not saying you need to support X or whatever, but maybe do not direct your hate of Nvidia to the users of Nvidia. Maybe they are even new to this. Because those would then just shake their head and go away, (back to windows). Hurray.

int_19h 8y ago

Is there any distro using Wayland out of the box, aside from Fedora?