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Right, so if a Jew was getting walked to gas chamber, they shouldn't get mad at the Nazi that was doing it because they were just following orders? OBVIOUSLY i

by araneae 16y ago

Right, so if a Jew was getting walked to gas chamber, they shouldn't get mad at the Nazi that was doing it because they were just following orders? OBVIOUSLY it isn't as bad, but you have every right to get mad at someone for doing something that's oppressive, even if they are a wage-slave.

M1573RMU74710N 16y ago
Well there's a couple problems here: 1) I'm not saying "don't get mad"...I explicitly said otherwise. I'm saying "we should punish appropriately" 2) The basis for this is not so much that they were following orders....the basis is they made a mistake while carrying out their job. There's a big difference between someone who is a murderer for a living and a Doctor who makes a (reasonable) mistake and kills someone. The Doctor shouldn't get off Scott-free, but neither should they be charged with first degree murder. The "just following orders" bit comes in because let's be honest: There seems to be an undercurrent here based on the fact that Penn has a disagreement with this policy. So Penn basically "has it out" for this guy in advance based on the fact that he disagrees with what the guy's bosses ordered. Like I said before, the guy screwed up...but it must be put in context. I think it's important to discriminate between someone who through circumstances does something oppressive, and someone who ACTS oppressive. In the case of the former, you should take issue with the act, and the circumstances. In the latter case, you also take issue with the person. I don't have much to go on, but I get the general impression that this was just some poor shmoe trying to do his job. He didn't set out to violate Penn's rights. Penn shouldn't just drop it...but neither should he ruin the guys life. It's very easy (and imho a little lazy) to say "well they should just quit their job instead of being a tool for the man. There's so much wrong with that sentiment I don't know where to begin. To answer your question directly: No, you should not as a matter of course. A lot of Nazis were practically kids. They may have been drafted...if they disobeyed orders, they might have been shot or sent to the Eastern Front. By staying, they might have been able to treat the Jews a little better than their replacement would...who knows. Again, this doesn't absolve them but it's important to put in context. Who you should direct your anger at is the people who ordered the Jews into the gas chamber...and the people who agreed with it.

by araneae 16y ago

M1573RMU74710N 16y ago

Well there's a couple problems here: 1) I'm not saying "don't get mad"...I explicitly said otherwise. I'm saying "we should punish appropriately" 2) The basis for this is not so much that they were following orders....the basis is they made a mistake while carrying out their job. There's a big difference between someone who is a murderer for a living and a Doctor who makes a (reasonable) mistake and kills someone. The Doctor shouldn't get off Scott-free, but neither should they be charged with first degree murder. The "just following orders" bit comes in because let's be honest: There seems to be an undercurrent here based on the fact that Penn has a disagreement with this policy. So Penn basically "has it out" for this guy in advance based on the fact that he disagrees with what the guy's bosses ordered. Like I said before, the guy screwed up...but it must be put in context. I think it's important to discriminate between someone who through circumstances does something oppressive, and someone who ACTS oppressive. In the case of the former, you should take issue with the act, and the circumstances. In the latter case, you also take issue with the person. I don't have much to go on, but I get the general impression that this was just some poor shmoe trying to do his job. He didn't set out to violate Penn's rights. Penn shouldn't just drop it...but neither should he ruin the guys life. It's very easy (and imho a little lazy) to say "well they should just quit their job instead of being a tool for the man. There's so much wrong with that sentiment I don't know where to begin. To answer your question directly: No, you should not as a matter of course. A lot of Nazis were practically kids. They may have been drafted...if they disobeyed orders, they might have been shot or sent to the Eastern Front. By staying, they might have been able to treat the Jews a little better than their replacement would...who knows. Again, this doesn't absolve them but it's important to put in context. Who you should direct your anger at is the people who ordered the Jews into the gas chamber...and the people who agreed with it.