5 ms·

I think the only way to fix this is to create a counter-conspiracy theory. Maybe something like "the anti-vax movement was started by the lizard people to weed

by imgabe 8y ago

I think the only way to fix this is to create a counter-conspiracy theory. Maybe something like "the anti-vax movement was started by the lizard people to weed out the weakest people so they'd only have the healthiest slaves in their salt mines" The CDC putting out notices isn't going to help. That just feeds into the rejection of authority at the heart of it. The only hope is to out-crazy them.

xvilka 8y ago
Just put the big fines on anti-vaxers and force them to vaccinate anyway (unless there are medical reasons of course). The only missing piece is a political will.
- petronio 8y ago
  Yeah, I'm waiting to see if when a child dies due to a disease that could've been vaccinated against but parents refused if a state prosecutor will try to slap them with criminal negligent homicide. I guess that will be the real test.
  - madhadron 8y ago
    I've seen a similar case. A kung fu instructor in New Jersey who didn't believe in the germ theory let his kid die of appendicitis instead of taking him to the hospital. Last I heard he was facing some pretty serious charges. I don't remember the final outcome, since I kind of disappeared from that circle.
myth_drannon 8y ago
Is it from Ron Hubbard novel?
Spooky23 8y ago
It’s a complex issue. It’s a mix of crazy people and politically powerful religious groups. You’ll never crack the religious people as communities that push this crap isolate people.
- cronix 8y ago
  Naturopathic schools and doctors, too.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Those people have a strong financial incentive to remain wrong. Many of them may even know they're wrong but don't care because they enjoy money more than they enjoy the sensation of honesty. And since you can't differentiate the ones who are stupid from the ones who are sociopaths pretending to be stupid, there is a decent chance you'll be wasting your time trying to persuade somebody who already agrees with you and simply won't admit it. Consider for instance practitioners of "psychic surgery." All practitioners of 'psychic surgery' know they are frauds because 'psychic surgery' is sleight of hand. With something like acupuncture or homeopathy, it's certainly plausible that some practitioners believe they are doing something real, but with 'psychic surgery' that form of self-delusion simply isn't a possibility. This demonstrates the existence of frauds who know they're frauds. There's no reason to believe similar personalities aren't operating in any other form of 'alternative medicine'. Don't waste your time with nuts who've made careers out of being nuts.
thangalin 8y ago
> The only hope is to out-crazy them. Or use the scientific method to determine what methods of persuasion have the highest success rates for promoting behavioural changes, such as motivational interviewing? https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c1900 https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c1900 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0010-8804(02)80030-1 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0010-8804(02)80030-1 Or require parents to consult with local public health departments to obtain a waiver, which has significantly reduced vaccine exemptions in some cases? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/can-skeptical-parents-be-persuaded-vaccinate https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/can-skeptical-parent...
- femto113 8y ago
  If states can force women to get medically unnecessary ultrasounds or listen to non-science-based "counseling" before an abortion it seems like they should also have the power to force parents to view videos of children who were maimed by polio or suffered brain damage from measles induced encephalitis before they opt out of vaccines.
  - bryanrasmussen 8y ago
    In the American system it is often politically easier to force people to do something in order to get something - such as force people to get ultrasounds before having an abortion - than it is to force someone to do something in order to abstain from something else (note, I don't say it's impossible many examples do come to mind, just it's more difficult). IIRC some places have tried to tie getting required vaccines to public school enrollment, but that is problematic because solu5ion is at state level and not national.
- samhain 8y ago
  You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You have to have a genuine and open dialogue with them in the form of a socratic discussion. See examples of street epistemology to get them to lessen their confidence. The first step to lessening their confidence is to get them to recognize and understand that the methods they are using to recognize true things is unreliable. Often you can't get them to flip positions on it over one discussion, so you have to have multiple discussions taking their ideas seriously and being respectful with them before they can come around. By presenting evidence, they'll be unconvinced and it will probably trigger the backfire effect and drive them deeper into their dogma. So I agree with what you're saying, street epistemology is like a form of motivational interviewing.
ourmandave 8y ago
I think the only way to fix this is to create a counter-conspiracy theory. Yes, we'll recruit from the Flat Earth Society, Moon Landing Deniers, Church of Scientology, Climate Change deniers, the Pizza Gaters, the 9/11 Truthers, Fluoridation haters, Shooting Victims are Child Actors group, Chemtrail worriers, Black Helicopter spotters, Blame George Soros fans, Illuminati Be Playin' 4D Chess Club, and every f'ing halfwit in a tinfoil hat.
technofiend 8y ago
>The only hope is to out-crazy them. Or just outlaw all exemptions except medically necessary and block unimmunized children from attending school.
- voltagex_ 8y ago
  They'll homeschool them. In the worst case, you're punishing the kid, not the parent.
  - technofiend 8y ago
    So be it. Fundamentalist Christians have the highest rate of home schooling now. At least the general public will be protected -- I'll take a slight uptick in home schooling for a huge increase in vaccination. And besides those truly committed to the cause the moms doing this because they're just followers will most likely not home school. Too much trouble.
    - klyrs 8y ago
      I have blood relatives (not family) into this crap. Both the homeschooling and the fundamentalism. They "protect" their children from everything outside of their narrow worldviews, science being a chief villain. It's an incredible disservice to the kids. Who are alarmingly numerous and approaching voting age.
      - mnm1 8y ago
        Growing up being fed any religion is an incredible disservice to all children that crosses the line into serious child abuse.
- limeblack 8y ago
  Unfortunately with the ease of forgery(my verification was a copy of a copy from 1990s when attending college) this is not exactly an easy solution. There is minimal to no verification process really in place.
noonespecial 8y ago
I think all you need is a tax. Every unvaxed citizen is a (small) increased burden on the health system. It may be an individuals right to refuse but it should not be at the expense of others. (exemptions for real medical issues of course) I'll bet that once there's a $50/year bill to remain unvaccinated, 95% of the problem will clear right up. For the remainder, great we've got the extra money to take care of it.

by imgabe 8y ago

xvilka 8y ago

Just put the big fines on anti-vaxers and force them to vaccinate anyway (unless there are medical reasons of course). The only missing piece is a political will.

petronio 8y ago
Yeah, I'm waiting to see if when a child dies due to a disease that could've been vaccinated against but parents refused if a state prosecutor will try to slap them with criminal negligent homicide. I guess that will be the real test.
- madhadron 8y ago
  I've seen a similar case. A kung fu instructor in New Jersey who didn't believe in the germ theory let his kid die of appendicitis instead of taking him to the hospital. Last I heard he was facing some pretty serious charges. I don't remember the final outcome, since I kind of disappeared from that circle.

myth_drannon 8y ago

Is it from Ron Hubbard novel?

Spooky23 8y ago

It’s a complex issue. It’s a mix of crazy people and politically powerful religious groups. You’ll never crack the religious people as communities that push this crap isolate people.

cronix 8y ago
Naturopathic schools and doctors, too.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Those people have a strong financial incentive to remain wrong. Many of them may even know they're wrong but don't care because they enjoy money more than they enjoy the sensation of honesty. And since you can't differentiate the ones who are stupid from the ones who are sociopaths pretending to be stupid, there is a decent chance you'll be wasting your time trying to persuade somebody who already agrees with you and simply won't admit it. Consider for instance practitioners of "psychic surgery." All practitioners of 'psychic surgery' know they are frauds because 'psychic surgery' is sleight of hand. With something like acupuncture or homeopathy, it's certainly plausible that some practitioners believe they are doing something real, but with 'psychic surgery' that form of self-delusion simply isn't a possibility. This demonstrates the existence of frauds who know they're frauds. There's no reason to believe similar personalities aren't operating in any other form of 'alternative medicine'. Don't waste your time with nuts who've made careers out of being nuts.

thangalin 8y ago

> The only hope is to out-crazy them. Or use the scientific method to determine what methods of persuasion have the highest success rates for promoting behavioural changes, such as motivational interviewing? https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c1900 https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c1900 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0010-8804(02)80030-1 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0010-8804(02)80030-1 Or require parents to consult with local public health departments to obtain a waiver, which has significantly reduced vaccine exemptions in some cases? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/can-skeptical-parents-be-persuaded-vaccinate https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/can-skeptical-parent...

femto113 8y ago
If states can force women to get medically unnecessary ultrasounds or listen to non-science-based "counseling" before an abortion it seems like they should also have the power to force parents to view videos of children who were maimed by polio or suffered brain damage from measles induced encephalitis before they opt out of vaccines.
- bryanrasmussen 8y ago
  In the American system it is often politically easier to force people to do something in order to get something - such as force people to get ultrasounds before having an abortion - than it is to force someone to do something in order to abstain from something else (note, I don't say it's impossible many examples do come to mind, just it's more difficult). IIRC some places have tried to tie getting required vaccines to public school enrollment, but that is problematic because solu5ion is at state level and not national.
samhain 8y ago
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You have to have a genuine and open dialogue with them in the form of a socratic discussion. See examples of street epistemology to get them to lessen their confidence. The first step to lessening their confidence is to get them to recognize and understand that the methods they are using to recognize true things is unreliable. Often you can't get them to flip positions on it over one discussion, so you have to have multiple discussions taking their ideas seriously and being respectful with them before they can come around. By presenting evidence, they'll be unconvinced and it will probably trigger the backfire effect and drive them deeper into their dogma. So I agree with what you're saying, street epistemology is like a form of motivational interviewing.

ourmandave 8y ago

I think the only way to fix this is to create a counter-conspiracy theory. Yes, we'll recruit from the Flat Earth Society, Moon Landing Deniers, Church of Scientology, Climate Change deniers, the Pizza Gaters, the 9/11 Truthers, Fluoridation haters, Shooting Victims are Child Actors group, Chemtrail worriers, Black Helicopter spotters, Blame George Soros fans, Illuminati Be Playin' 4D Chess Club, and every f'ing halfwit in a tinfoil hat.

technofiend 8y ago

>The only hope is to out-crazy them. Or just outlaw all exemptions except medically necessary and block unimmunized children from attending school.

voltagex_ 8y ago
They'll homeschool them. In the worst case, you're punishing the kid, not the parent.
- technofiend 8y ago
  So be it. Fundamentalist Christians have the highest rate of home schooling now. At least the general public will be protected -- I'll take a slight uptick in home schooling for a huge increase in vaccination. And besides those truly committed to the cause the moms doing this because they're just followers will most likely not home school. Too much trouble.
  - klyrs 8y ago
    I have blood relatives (not family) into this crap. Both the homeschooling and the fundamentalism. They "protect" their children from everything outside of their narrow worldviews, science being a chief villain. It's an incredible disservice to the kids. Who are alarmingly numerous and approaching voting age.
    - mnm1 8y ago
      Growing up being fed any religion is an incredible disservice to all children that crosses the line into serious child abuse.
limeblack 8y ago
Unfortunately with the ease of forgery(my verification was a copy of a copy from 1990s when attending college) this is not exactly an easy solution. There is minimal to no verification process really in place.

noonespecial 8y ago

I think all you need is a tax. Every unvaxed citizen is a (small) increased burden on the health system. It may be an individuals right to refuse but it should not be at the expense of others. (exemptions for real medical issues of course) I'll bet that once there's a $50/year bill to remain unvaccinated, 95% of the problem will clear right up. For the remainder, great we've got the extra money to take care of it.