4 ms·

Is that sales tax thing still a major problem? All you need to do is determine location (through IP, credit card etc) then do a lookup in a library, then add th

Is that sales tax thing still a major problem? All you need to do is determine location (through IP, credit card etc) then do a lookup in a library, then add the relevant amount to the price. In principle it’s an important idea, otherwise all online retailers will set themselves up in a zero tax domicile and get an unjustified 5-20% advantage over local retailers.

jakub_g 8y ago
> determine location through credit card Displaying the final price _after_ the user has put the CC number is not the most trustworthy experience :) I don't know how this is done in the wild, but some large companies often have TLDs per country and only accept CCs from a given country on a given site version, for example (and they redirect you by IP).
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Hah, yes, that’s true, but you could just have a country selector mechanism before showing the price, prepopulated from IP, then validate that for regulatory purposes using the credit card.
- AnssiH 8y ago
  Another way to deal with that (which e.g. Amazon uses in Europe for international Prime Video and Music Unlimited) is to use a fixed inc.VAT price and then just have the exc.VAT price vary by country.
Mirioron 8y ago
>Is that sales tax thing still a major problem? All you need to do is determine location (through IP, credit card etc) then do a lookup in a library, then add the relevant amount to the price. Yes, it is. Let's say you're running a one man business selling digital knitting patterns. Before the law you could sell to anyone in the EU and you'd only have to deal with your own country's tax authority. After the law you had to deal with the tax authority of every single EU country you had a buyer in. Is it worth selling 10 patterns to Lithuania? No, because filing taxes to the Lithuanian tax authority is more expensive than what you would've made from the sales. Thus, you don't sell to Lithuania. There was no minimum threshold. Earned €0.01 from another country? Better file those taxes. Almost every single country has a minimum VAT threshold, but EU politicians in their infinite wisdom didn't think of that. This situation persisted until this year, where there's finally a minimum VAT threshold in place. It's low (€10,000) but at least it's something. It only took them FOUR YEARS to do this. I wonder how many micro and small businesses closed as a result.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  As much as I think the law is annoying > After the law you had to deal with the tax authority of every single EU country you had a buyer in. Incorrect, that's why the VAT MOSS scheme exists https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digital-services-moss-scheme/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digit... The vat threshold is definitely welcome though
cronix 8y ago
And customers will just use VPN's so they appear from a different country and use bitcoin.
repolfx 8y ago
It's not that easy. The rules are byzantine. You have to determine location using multiple pieces of "evidence", IP geocoding is insufficient. There are specific rules for what to do if the user is on a plane or a cruise ship. You need to correctly map the user's location to VAT rate even though in some parts of Europe VAT differs within a country, rates can change at any moment and there's no central database of rates. The VAT rulings are a mess. The correct thing to do is let remote retailers drive the sales tax rates to zero for things that can be bought over the internet. The complexities of trying to pretend all sales are local in a world where long-range shipping and the internet exist aren't worth it. But let's not forget the EU's other regulatory hits. The cookie law that means every website now tells me it uses cookies (I know), with an annoying pop up (that uses a cookie to remember it's been dismissed). This solved zero problems I had in life but does mean using the web has become systematically unpleasant. And then there's the GDPR, a law that literally says "you can't do these things unless you have a legitimate need in which case you can", thus making a mockery of the entire concept of law. GDPR is especially indicative of the EU's true nature because, of course, it does not apply to the EU itself. The Commission was in violation on the day it came into force, on this being noticed they announced that the Commission does not have to comply with GDPR like everyone else does. The EU has a long track record of passing awful, business-killing laws whilst simultaneously ignoring any of its own laws or treaties the moment they get in the way of what the EU's leadership wants. It's a part of the world that implements rule by law.
- AnssiH 8y ago
  > You have to determine location using multiple pieces of "evidence", IP geocoding is insufficient. For companies with total supplies under 100.000 EUR, a single piece of evidence (which can be IP geocoding) is enough as of January 2019, thanks to this amendment: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32017R2459 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

jakub_g 8y ago

> determine location through credit card Displaying the final price _after_ the user has put the CC number is not the most trustworthy experience :) I don't know how this is done in the wild, but some large companies often have TLDs per country and only accept CCs from a given country on a given site version, for example (and they redirect you by IP).

Brakenshire 8y ago
Hah, yes, that’s true, but you could just have a country selector mechanism before showing the price, prepopulated from IP, then validate that for regulatory purposes using the credit card.
AnssiH 8y ago
Another way to deal with that (which e.g. Amazon uses in Europe for international Prime Video and Music Unlimited) is to use a fixed inc.VAT price and then just have the exc.VAT price vary by country.

Mirioron 8y ago

>Is that sales tax thing still a major problem? All you need to do is determine location (through IP, credit card etc) then do a lookup in a library, then add the relevant amount to the price. Yes, it is. Let's say you're running a one man business selling digital knitting patterns. Before the law you could sell to anyone in the EU and you'd only have to deal with your own country's tax authority. After the law you had to deal with the tax authority of every single EU country you had a buyer in. Is it worth selling 10 patterns to Lithuania? No, because filing taxes to the Lithuanian tax authority is more expensive than what you would've made from the sales. Thus, you don't sell to Lithuania. There was no minimum threshold. Earned €0.01 from another country? Better file those taxes. Almost every single country has a minimum VAT threshold, but EU politicians in their infinite wisdom didn't think of that. This situation persisted until this year, where there's finally a minimum VAT threshold in place. It's low (€10,000) but at least it's something. It only took them FOUR YEARS to do this. I wonder how many micro and small businesses closed as a result.

raverbashing 8y ago
As much as I think the law is annoying > After the law you had to deal with the tax authority of every single EU country you had a buyer in. Incorrect, that's why the VAT MOSS scheme exists https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digital-services-moss-scheme/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digit... The vat threshold is definitely welcome though

cronix 8y ago

And customers will just use VPN's so they appear from a different country and use bitcoin.

repolfx 8y ago

It's not that easy. The rules are byzantine. You have to determine location using multiple pieces of "evidence", IP geocoding is insufficient. There are specific rules for what to do if the user is on a plane or a cruise ship. You need to correctly map the user's location to VAT rate even though in some parts of Europe VAT differs within a country, rates can change at any moment and there's no central database of rates. The VAT rulings are a mess. The correct thing to do is let remote retailers drive the sales tax rates to zero for things that can be bought over the internet. The complexities of trying to pretend all sales are local in a world where long-range shipping and the internet exist aren't worth it. But let's not forget the EU's other regulatory hits. The cookie law that means every website now tells me it uses cookies (I know), with an annoying pop up (that uses a cookie to remember it's been dismissed). This solved zero problems I had in life but does mean using the web has become systematically unpleasant. And then there's the GDPR, a law that literally says "you can't do these things unless you have a legitimate need in which case you can", thus making a mockery of the entire concept of law. GDPR is especially indicative of the EU's true nature because, of course, it does not apply to the EU itself. The Commission was in violation on the day it came into force, on this being noticed they announced that the Commission does not have to comply with GDPR like everyone else does. The EU has a long track record of passing awful, business-killing laws whilst simultaneously ignoring any of its own laws or treaties the moment they get in the way of what the EU's leadership wants. It's a part of the world that implements rule by law.

AnssiH 8y ago
> You have to determine location using multiple pieces of "evidence", IP geocoding is insufficient. For companies with total supplies under 100.000 EUR, a single piece of evidence (which can be IP geocoding) is enough as of January 2019, thanks to this amendment: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32017R2459 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...