4 ms·

This one "reform" made me go from being pro-EU to anti-EU. And if this passes then I don't think there's anything the EU could ever do that would change my mind

This one "reform" made me go from being pro-EU to anti-EU. And if this passes then I don't think there's anything the EU could ever do that would change my mind on the EU project.

wazoox 8y ago
If only this was the worst problem with EU. The worst problem is the very existence of the Euro in the absence of a financial policy -- and Germany explicitly forbade this from happening. Therefore the Euro will explode sooner or later. For reminders, the situation is so bad that France recalled its ambassador in Italy friday. Something that AFAIK didn't happen since WWII. EU isn't peace; obviously, it's tearing countries apart. In a few years, Brexit will be seen as the most prescient, great political act of the decade.
- riffraff 8y ago
  The italy-france kerfuffle can be explained by the current Italian government needing an enemy for electoral reasons and has nothing to do with any specific EU policy. The France government ran with the ball for the exact same reason.
- Phil_Latio 8y ago
  Unfortunately the macroeconomic aspect is a total taboo in Germany. Even "solidary" leftists claim we profit so much from the Euro... The ones on the very left get it, but they barely talk about it. Germany will never give up on the cheated export surplus until the whole thing goes bust. Hell, barely anyone gets it anyway. Germany is certainly not alone to blame. How can the competitiveness of Germany increase for more than a decade without any other EU country caring? In the past they devalued their currencies, so why didn't they act now? Also Germany violates the 6% export surplus limit, no one cares!
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Germany (and France!) violating the same budget rules it insists everyone else follows is indeed a damning indictment of what the EU truly is. But Germany isn't a winner from the Eurozone. I don't understand why everyone keeps thinking that. Germans are suffering under it and allow themselves to suffer because they see unifying Europe as a form of penance for World War 2. Think about it - German "competitiveness" is just another way to say that they work harder than everyone else. They save money that the ECB then gives to foreign governments through QE. They make things and send them to other parts of Europe. In return they get what are effectively IOUs from the other countries - TARGET2 balances that are supposed to imply a transfer of "real" euros (i.e. paper money) one day, but which are so huge those transfers will never actually happen. There are no realistic scenarios in which an equally sized flow of goods or services ever comes back to the poor Germans in return for their efforts: the only plausible outcome is that either the internal imbalances are written off for good by the EU authorities, or that other countries exit the Eurozone and the imbalances are written off amidst acrimony and bitterness. I cannot see any realistic path to Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, eastern Europe etc ever becoming as productive as the Germans are, let alone more productive as would be required to restore balance to the system, if only because the Germans never seem to give themselves pay rises. In the end Germany will be the biggest loser of the EU project, simply because they put the most into it to start with.
    - Phil_Latio 8y ago
      > But Germany isn't a winner from the Eurozone Well our politicians see it different. Germany was able to have government surpluses and decrease the countries debt. We have low unemployment. Relative to other EU countries, especially France, we look pretty healthy. Despite the domestic market being a mess and the average worker being stripped of normal wage increases, it's hard to argument against these "successes" without explaining in detail the macroeconomic aspects and the consequences in the long run. > German "competitiveness" is just another way to say that they work harder than everyone else. Actually France has about the same productivity as Germany, always had since introduction of the Euro. I think what you mean is productivity in relation to wages, namely unit labor cost. Meaning germans get way too low wages for their productivity. And yes Germany will be the biggest loser: The government and export industry gained the most, they will lose the most. Millions of additional unemployed people, hatred from the other (former) Euro countries, far right/left parties may have a shot of getting to power, etc..
- Mirioron 8y ago
  But the euro problem is at least something that can be dealt with or walked back to some degree or if nothing else happens, it'll implode which will bring changes. Harming the internet is not something you can reverse. Once you fracture the internet it stays fractured.
- lurcio 8y ago
  - or, for security, the EU raises a standing army, is granted fiscal powers over the core states to fund it's increasing needs and becomes Eurasia... (writing this from Airstrip One).
- raverbashing 8y ago
  The France-Italy spat doesn't have to do much with the EU Do you know the historical origins of the Euro and how France was worried to have a unified Germany with low interest rates next door? So, yeah. The Euro has its problems but your post just sounds like disinformation to be honest
  - wazoox 8y ago
    It has everything to do with the EU, the Dublin rule, the fact that Italy is chastised for its 2% deficit while France gets away with 2.8% deficit, and some other things. Why do you think the populists won the elections in Italy, and will without a doubt in France in May? Here is the story of the euro: stupid French technocrats invented it. Some unknown counsel in Fabius office when he was a prime minister even explained someday how he and a colleague pulled the "3% deficit rule" out of their noses because it sounded right, back then in 1984. This would be oh so funny if it wasn't so pathetic thinking about how incompetent all these serious-looking people are. Mitterrand said in 1992 "J'ai cloué les mains de l'Allemagne à la table" (I nailed Germany's hands to the table). That was a terrible idea from the start. The bet was that as it cannot function without an integrated financial and tax systems, these will be forced into existence against everyone's will (but those of the most convinced federalists). And guess what? no integration happened, and now we're hosed.

This one "reform" made me go from being pro-EU to anti-EU. And if this passes then I don't think there's anything the EU could ever do that would change my mind on the EU project.

wazoox 8y ago

If only this was the worst problem with EU. The worst problem is the very existence of the Euro in the absence of a financial policy -- and Germany explicitly forbade this from happening. Therefore the Euro will explode sooner or later. For reminders, the situation is so bad that France recalled its ambassador in Italy friday. Something that AFAIK didn't happen since WWII. EU isn't peace; obviously, it's tearing countries apart. In a few years, Brexit will be seen as the most prescient, great political act of the decade.

riffraff 8y ago
The italy-france kerfuffle can be explained by the current Italian government needing an enemy for electoral reasons and has nothing to do with any specific EU policy. The France government ran with the ball for the exact same reason.
Phil_Latio 8y ago
Unfortunately the macroeconomic aspect is a total taboo in Germany. Even "solidary" leftists claim we profit so much from the Euro... The ones on the very left get it, but they barely talk about it. Germany will never give up on the cheated export surplus until the whole thing goes bust. Hell, barely anyone gets it anyway. Germany is certainly not alone to blame. How can the competitiveness of Germany increase for more than a decade without any other EU country caring? In the past they devalued their currencies, so why didn't they act now? Also Germany violates the 6% export surplus limit, no one cares!
- repolfx 8y ago
  Germany (and France!) violating the same budget rules it insists everyone else follows is indeed a damning indictment of what the EU truly is. But Germany isn't a winner from the Eurozone. I don't understand why everyone keeps thinking that. Germans are suffering under it and allow themselves to suffer because they see unifying Europe as a form of penance for World War 2. Think about it - German "competitiveness" is just another way to say that they work harder than everyone else. They save money that the ECB then gives to foreign governments through QE. They make things and send them to other parts of Europe. In return they get what are effectively IOUs from the other countries - TARGET2 balances that are supposed to imply a transfer of "real" euros (i.e. paper money) one day, but which are so huge those transfers will never actually happen. There are no realistic scenarios in which an equally sized flow of goods or services ever comes back to the poor Germans in return for their efforts: the only plausible outcome is that either the internal imbalances are written off for good by the EU authorities, or that other countries exit the Eurozone and the imbalances are written off amidst acrimony and bitterness. I cannot see any realistic path to Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, eastern Europe etc ever becoming as productive as the Germans are, let alone more productive as would be required to restore balance to the system, if only because the Germans never seem to give themselves pay rises. In the end Germany will be the biggest loser of the EU project, simply because they put the most into it to start with.
  - Phil_Latio 8y ago
    > But Germany isn't a winner from the Eurozone Well our politicians see it different. Germany was able to have government surpluses and decrease the countries debt. We have low unemployment. Relative to other EU countries, especially France, we look pretty healthy. Despite the domestic market being a mess and the average worker being stripped of normal wage increases, it's hard to argument against these "successes" without explaining in detail the macroeconomic aspects and the consequences in the long run. > German "competitiveness" is just another way to say that they work harder than everyone else. Actually France has about the same productivity as Germany, always had since introduction of the Euro. I think what you mean is productivity in relation to wages, namely unit labor cost. Meaning germans get way too low wages for their productivity. And yes Germany will be the biggest loser: The government and export industry gained the most, they will lose the most. Millions of additional unemployed people, hatred from the other (former) Euro countries, far right/left parties may have a shot of getting to power, etc..
Mirioron 8y ago
But the euro problem is at least something that can be dealt with or walked back to some degree or if nothing else happens, it'll implode which will bring changes. Harming the internet is not something you can reverse. Once you fracture the internet it stays fractured.
lurcio 8y ago
- or, for security, the EU raises a standing army, is granted fiscal powers over the core states to fund it's increasing needs and becomes Eurasia... (writing this from Airstrip One).
raverbashing 8y ago
The France-Italy spat doesn't have to do much with the EU Do you know the historical origins of the Euro and how France was worried to have a unified Germany with low interest rates next door? So, yeah. The Euro has its problems but your post just sounds like disinformation to be honest
- wazoox 8y ago
  It has everything to do with the EU, the Dublin rule, the fact that Italy is chastised for its 2% deficit while France gets away with 2.8% deficit, and some other things. Why do you think the populists won the elections in Italy, and will without a doubt in France in May? Here is the story of the euro: stupid French technocrats invented it. Some unknown counsel in Fabius office when he was a prime minister even explained someday how he and a colleague pulled the "3% deficit rule" out of their noses because it sounded right, back then in 1984. This would be oh so funny if it wasn't so pathetic thinking about how incompetent all these serious-looking people are. Mitterrand said in 1992 "J'ai cloué les mains de l'Allemagne à la table" (I nailed Germany's hands to the table). That was a terrible idea from the start. The bet was that as it cannot function without an integrated financial and tax systems, these will be forced into existence against everyone's will (but those of the most convinced federalists). And guess what? no integration happened, and now we're hosed.