5 ms·

Penn (of Penn&Teller) tries to charge a TSA employee with assault

58 points by seldo 16y ago

jdp23 16y ago
this is a belated answer to the geophile's question a few days ago at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1898257 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1898257 : if you feel you're assaulted, you should call for the local police. They tried to discourage him, but he stood his ground. Here's what happened: Finally Metro PD shows up. It's really interesting. First of all, the cop is a BIG P&T fan and that ain't hurting. Second, I get the vibe that he is WAY sick of these federal leather-sniffers. He has that vibe that real cops have toward renta-cops.... I tell the cop the story, in a very funny way. The cop, the voice of sanity says, "What's wrong with you people? You can't just grab a guy's crank without his permission." I tell him that my genitals weren't grabbed and the cop says, "I don't care, you can't do that to people. That's assault and battery in my book."
- geophile 16y ago
  Penn came out OK, but it seems like Penn he had a few good breaks. The guy in San Diego didn't fare so well, possibly because he threatened to call the cops if he was groped. Penn was groped, and then he called the cops. While I don't think that we're going to see consistent cause-and-effect from the entire TSA workforce, these cases are definitely useful in finding out how to react. I've also been wondering about civil suits. Maybe that approach will be tried soon. It does seem like the number of incidents (or incidents becoming known) is increasing.
  - jdp23 16y ago
    agreed. there's so much variation that it's hard to generalize -- and on top of that, he's Penn. still it's interesting data points. the attitude of the local cops to the TSA is one of the things I was thinking about in the other thread. it's a situation with overlapping jurisdictions ... and also, most cops I've talked with about airport security see it as ineffective and see the TSO's as not having a lot of training in police work [which is in fact true].
  - colanderman 16y ago
    The problem with the get-groped-then-call-cops approach is that most TSA employees will tell you that they're about to touch you, giving you the implicit option to leave (which of course costs $10k but is still an option). This particular employee did not give Penn this choice, which is what makes it assault. Further, it's been mentioned elsewhere that the Supreme Court determined that TSA does have the authority to detain you in the airport, which means that even if you choose to walk out and risk the fine, they can still physically restrain you without legally assaulting you.
  - jdp23 16y ago
    on civil suits, here's a post from Prison Planet describing a couple: one from 2008, and one that by Rutherford Institute on behalf of pilots. http://www.infowars.com/tsa-hit-with-lawsuits-as-revolt-explodes/ http://www.infowars.com/tsa-hit-with-lawsuits-as-revolt-expl...
M1573RMU74710N 16y ago
I think it he handled it pretty well, but I really hope he doesn't press charges. I'm as against the ridiculous new regulations as anyone, but I'm surprised by the general lack of sympathy for the actual TSA agents on the ground, regardless of anything...just as a matter of course. As far as I can tell the agent in question made an honest mistake, they didn't notify Penn. I have a hard time believing anyone who travels could be unaware of the new regulations. This doesn't excuse the mistake, but it's important to put it in context. They definitely dropped the ball, and deserve some sort of chastisement... but is slapping them with an assault charge really fair? It seems to me it would be taking it out on the little guy... I don't envy these people...they're generally hated and I don't know if you've notice but the general American public is not largely composed of people I'd want to lay hands on. They probably have to frisk 1000's of people a day, and as many in Penn's story confirm this is all so new and up in the air. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes....it's unavoidable. Doctors sometimes make mistakes, and people die. Generally though, they are only punished if they really screwed up...and even then not with criminal charges. It's also worth noting Doctors are generally well paid for the responsibilities their position entails. TSA agents are probably not paid terribly well, but regardless are expected to be perfect machines. The problem is all this stuff about sexual assault clouds the issue....there is a lot of potential for a (and I hesitate to use the term, but I'm not sure how else to phrase it) "real" sexual assault to occur...where a TSA agent is clearly and deliberately overstepping the bounds...and when that happens it may be lost in all the other stories of people who are shrieking "sexual assault" just because they (rightly) disagree with this stupid policy. I have a hard time believing Penn really felt as if he was assualted, except perhaps a metaphorical assault against his dignity and personal liberties. That is a serious assault...but this agent is not the one responsible for that. The attitude some people have towards TSA agents strikes me as childish and incredibly entitled. We should be holding individual agents accountable, but I can't help like feeling people are holding them to a higher standard than is really realistic, and are misdirecting their anger....it should be directed at the policy makers not the poor shmoes who it falls upon to enforce it...people just trying to make a living and get by. I would say making a fuss, and even calling the Cops was a good idea as it really registers the outrage and puts a cost on keeping this stupid policy....ruining some poor shmoes life with actual assault charges? not so much...
patrickgzill 16y ago
I can't actually reach the page, however, there is established legal precedent that explicitly removes immunity from any Federal officer "just doing their job" if what they are actually doing is illegal. This is sometimes called a "Bivens" claim; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens
egb 16y ago
Point of order, in that this doesn't seem to be from the xray pushback - this seems to be from 2002. Page title is "Federal V.I.P Penn - 11/13/02"

58 points by seldo 16y ago

jdp23 16y ago

this is a belated answer to the geophile's question a few days ago at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1898257 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1898257 : if you feel you're assaulted, you should call for the local police. They tried to discourage him, but he stood his ground. Here's what happened: Finally Metro PD shows up. It's really interesting. First of all, the cop is a BIG P&T fan and that ain't hurting. Second, I get the vibe that he is WAY sick of these federal leather-sniffers. He has that vibe that real cops have toward renta-cops.... I tell the cop the story, in a very funny way. The cop, the voice of sanity says, "What's wrong with you people? You can't just grab a guy's crank without his permission." I tell him that my genitals weren't grabbed and the cop says, "I don't care, you can't do that to people. That's assault and battery in my book."

geophile 16y ago
Penn came out OK, but it seems like Penn he had a few good breaks. The guy in San Diego didn't fare so well, possibly because he threatened to call the cops if he was groped. Penn was groped, and then he called the cops. While I don't think that we're going to see consistent cause-and-effect from the entire TSA workforce, these cases are definitely useful in finding out how to react. I've also been wondering about civil suits. Maybe that approach will be tried soon. It does seem like the number of incidents (or incidents becoming known) is increasing.
- jdp23 16y ago
  agreed. there's so much variation that it's hard to generalize -- and on top of that, he's Penn. still it's interesting data points. the attitude of the local cops to the TSA is one of the things I was thinking about in the other thread. it's a situation with overlapping jurisdictions ... and also, most cops I've talked with about airport security see it as ineffective and see the TSO's as not having a lot of training in police work [which is in fact true].
- colanderman 16y ago
  The problem with the get-groped-then-call-cops approach is that most TSA employees will tell you that they're about to touch you, giving you the implicit option to leave (which of course costs $10k but is still an option). This particular employee did not give Penn this choice, which is what makes it assault. Further, it's been mentioned elsewhere that the Supreme Court determined that TSA does have the authority to detain you in the airport, which means that even if you choose to walk out and risk the fine, they can still physically restrain you without legally assaulting you.
- jdp23 16y ago
  on civil suits, here's a post from Prison Planet describing a couple: one from 2008, and one that by Rutherford Institute on behalf of pilots. http://www.infowars.com/tsa-hit-with-lawsuits-as-revolt-explodes/ http://www.infowars.com/tsa-hit-with-lawsuits-as-revolt-expl...

M1573RMU74710N 16y ago

I think it he handled it pretty well, but I really hope he doesn't press charges. I'm as against the ridiculous new regulations as anyone, but I'm surprised by the general lack of sympathy for the actual TSA agents on the ground, regardless of anything...just as a matter of course. As far as I can tell the agent in question made an honest mistake, they didn't notify Penn. I have a hard time believing anyone who travels could be unaware of the new regulations. This doesn't excuse the mistake, but it's important to put it in context. They definitely dropped the ball, and deserve some sort of chastisement... but is slapping them with an assault charge really fair? It seems to me it would be taking it out on the little guy... I don't envy these people...they're generally hated and I don't know if you've notice but the general American public is not largely composed of people I'd want to lay hands on. They probably have to frisk 1000's of people a day, and as many in Penn's story confirm this is all so new and up in the air. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes....it's unavoidable. Doctors sometimes make mistakes, and people die. Generally though, they are only punished if they really screwed up...and even then not with criminal charges. It's also worth noting Doctors are generally well paid for the responsibilities their position entails. TSA agents are probably not paid terribly well, but regardless are expected to be perfect machines. The problem is all this stuff about sexual assault clouds the issue....there is a lot of potential for a (and I hesitate to use the term, but I'm not sure how else to phrase it) "real" sexual assault to occur...where a TSA agent is clearly and deliberately overstepping the bounds...and when that happens it may be lost in all the other stories of people who are shrieking "sexual assault" just because they (rightly) disagree with this stupid policy. I have a hard time believing Penn really felt as if he was assualted, except perhaps a metaphorical assault against his dignity and personal liberties. That is a serious assault...but this agent is not the one responsible for that. The attitude some people have towards TSA agents strikes me as childish and incredibly entitled. We should be holding individual agents accountable, but I can't help like feeling people are holding them to a higher standard than is really realistic, and are misdirecting their anger....it should be directed at the policy makers not the poor shmoes who it falls upon to enforce it...people just trying to make a living and get by. I would say making a fuss, and even calling the Cops was a good idea as it really registers the outrage and puts a cost on keeping this stupid policy....ruining some poor shmoes life with actual assault charges? not so much...

patrickgzill 16y ago

I can't actually reach the page, however, there is established legal precedent that explicitly removes immunity from any Federal officer "just doing their job" if what they are actually doing is illegal. This is sometimes called a "Bivens" claim; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens

egb 16y ago

Point of order, in that this doesn't seem to be from the xray pushback - this seems to be from 2002. Page title is "Federal V.I.P Penn - 11/13/02"