4 ms·

I think we live in a golden age of $n simulators. There seems to be one for everything, allowing people to escape their realities and become the truck driver or

I think we live in a golden age of $n simulators. There seems to be one for everything, allowing people to escape their realities and become the truck driver or farmer they’ve always wanted to. I wonder what the replay ability of those is though. And it all started from original flight and train Simulators. At least with those simulators you can get various plugins to really expand the environment and gameplay.

giancarlostoro 8y ago
For me most of the fun comes in making games behave unrealistic or unintended (whether it means modding the game, or exploiting it - single player only games not online games). Like I loved how in either Euro Truck Simulator, I got off the road and got off course, pretty sure a real truck might of blown up by the time I got it back on the road. Flight Sim is another one that doesn't let you crash under specific settings. I do hope for more simulators though. We technically have some programming "simulators" for Assembly programming puzzlers.
- samstave 8y ago
  You know what would be a fun mini game based on this one “political assassination by plane sabotage” Imagine if your target was any of the many political / prominent figures killed in air “accidents” and your job is to, as mechanic, be able to sabotage the plane in such a way that routine checks by others is not found. Make it a multi player game, where youre randomly assigned role of checker vs sabotuer.
  - smacktoward 8y ago
    I like it! Especially the multiplayer idea, it sounds like an aviation themed version of SpyParty (http://www.spyparty.com/ http://www.spyparty.com/).
  - sdenton4 8y ago
    (Or you could try to do things a bit more... Directly... https://youtu.be/sIY7BQkbIT8 https://youtu.be/sIY7BQkbIT8 )
  - philwelch 8y ago
    Considering that this game is by a Polish developer, it might be a little too soon for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_c...
    - samstave 8y ago
      Heh... yeah that popped into my head when i posted this...
- shermanyo 8y ago
  > We technically have some programming "simulators" for Assembly programming puzzlers. I'm guessing you've seen / are referring to TIS-100? http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/ http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/
exDM69 8y ago
There's more in it than you think, it's not just about escapism. Driving a train usually needs an engineering degree in real life, it's about managing the momentum of a thousand ton vehicle up and down hills. Reversing a truck with a trailer takes a ton of practice. Flying aircraft, especially over long distances requires a lot of knowledge and skills in aviation and navigation. Farming simulator may sound mundane, but it's about driving heavy vehicles, managing economy and getting to understand farming. There's a lot more to these games than meets the eye. I've thoroughly enjoyed all of them. There's no way I'll ever be a train engineer, a pilot or a farmer but I get a glimpse into what the job is like in an entertaining gaming session.
- p0llard 8y ago
  > Driving a train usually needs an engineering degree in real life I'm dubious of this claim, but am happy to be proven wrong. I don't really see how an engineering degree would be necessary, or even helpful at all for this; I quite agree that it definitely requires a lot of skill, but an engineering degree is an academic qualification which is really an assessment of intellect as opposed to trained skill. Building on that last claim, I would say that a significant minority, if not a small majority, of professional engineering jobs (in the traditional sense, and excluding train drivers) do not actually require a degree in practice, instead requiring only a certain aptitude and the ability to skill up as necessary for the specific job.
  - kirrent 8y ago
    I know some train drivers. None of them have engineering degrees or are particularly technically minded in any real way.
  - exDM69 8y ago
    I guess I should have been more specific. In my country, train drivers still have engineering degrees. Maybe not everywhere any more. Back in steam engine days the job was more difficult, and needed higher education than today. And train simulators reflect this, operating a steam locomotive is really difficult. Although the diesel electrics are hard, steam locos are a whole different game. I still haven't been able to complete a route without running into trouble with pressure, water levels, fire mass or fuel. Train sims are fun, challenging and entertaining. If you're into slower paced and more strategic gaming, give one of the train sims a go.
smacktoward 8y ago
I see this trend as a reaction to the rise of what David Graeber calls "bullshit jobs" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs). Look at the jobs that people like to simulate: pilot, driver, farmer, heavy machinery operator, emergency responder (police/fireman), etc. What do these jobs all have in common? They're jobs where you can do something, usually with your hands, and immediately see what you did impact the world. That direct connection to outcomes is the opposite of the weird futility that permeates the bullshit job. Getting back to it is what the simulator player is really after, the truck or tractor or whatever is just set dressing. (For bonus points, consider the jobs that are popular to simulate in the context of Marx's theory of alienation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation)
- philwelch 8y ago
  The problem with "bullshit jobs" isn't necessarily that they're completely unnecessary, it's that they lie many layers of indirection and specialization away from the delivery of value. For example, receptionists and secretaries (two rapidly dying professions, BTW) don't just "serve to make their superiors feel important", they significantly improve the productivity of the people they assist. These jobs are literally an Econ 101 example of comparative advantage. But even those examples are blatantly obvious to anyone who actually works with a receptionist or secretary. Other examples are less so, but effective organizations try to do a good job of showing people how their work fits into the bigger picture. If you're on an assembly line all day drilling three holes into a sheet of steel, by default you're going to feel alienated. The solution to that is to say, no, you're not just drilling three holes into a sheet of steel, you're helping to build a car. And if you do your job well, you're going to build the best cars in the world. And if you have ideas about how to improve the part of the manufacturing process that you're personally involved in, we will continuously improve the process based on your feedback. And so on and so forth. Alienation happens, but it doesn't have to, and when it does happen, it usually either leads to or coincides with poor results. Those solutions I mentioned didn't come from academics or revolutionaries; they came from engineers and industrialists. Pointless jobs do exist, but most of these jobs exist for reasons like "it's hard to efficiently coordinate large organizations", "sometimes game theory leads to shitty outcomes", and "some people are either con artists or cranks".

giancarlostoro 8y ago

For me most of the fun comes in making games behave unrealistic or unintended (whether it means modding the game, or exploiting it - single player only games not online games). Like I loved how in either Euro Truck Simulator, I got off the road and got off course, pretty sure a real truck might of blown up by the time I got it back on the road. Flight Sim is another one that doesn't let you crash under specific settings. I do hope for more simulators though. We technically have some programming "simulators" for Assembly programming puzzlers.

samstave 8y ago
You know what would be a fun mini game based on this one “political assassination by plane sabotage” Imagine if your target was any of the many political / prominent figures killed in air “accidents” and your job is to, as mechanic, be able to sabotage the plane in such a way that routine checks by others is not found. Make it a multi player game, where youre randomly assigned role of checker vs sabotuer.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  I like it! Especially the multiplayer idea, it sounds like an aviation themed version of SpyParty (http://www.spyparty.com/ http://www.spyparty.com/).
- sdenton4 8y ago
  (Or you could try to do things a bit more... Directly... https://youtu.be/sIY7BQkbIT8 https://youtu.be/sIY7BQkbIT8 )
- philwelch 8y ago
  Considering that this game is by a Polish developer, it might be a little too soon for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_c...
  - samstave 8y ago
    Heh... yeah that popped into my head when i posted this...
shermanyo 8y ago
> We technically have some programming "simulators" for Assembly programming puzzlers. I'm guessing you've seen / are referring to TIS-100? http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/ http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/

exDM69 8y ago

There's more in it than you think, it's not just about escapism. Driving a train usually needs an engineering degree in real life, it's about managing the momentum of a thousand ton vehicle up and down hills. Reversing a truck with a trailer takes a ton of practice. Flying aircraft, especially over long distances requires a lot of knowledge and skills in aviation and navigation. Farming simulator may sound mundane, but it's about driving heavy vehicles, managing economy and getting to understand farming. There's a lot more to these games than meets the eye. I've thoroughly enjoyed all of them. There's no way I'll ever be a train engineer, a pilot or a farmer but I get a glimpse into what the job is like in an entertaining gaming session.

p0llard 8y ago
> Driving a train usually needs an engineering degree in real life I'm dubious of this claim, but am happy to be proven wrong. I don't really see how an engineering degree would be necessary, or even helpful at all for this; I quite agree that it definitely requires a lot of skill, but an engineering degree is an academic qualification which is really an assessment of intellect as opposed to trained skill. Building on that last claim, I would say that a significant minority, if not a small majority, of professional engineering jobs (in the traditional sense, and excluding train drivers) do not actually require a degree in practice, instead requiring only a certain aptitude and the ability to skill up as necessary for the specific job.
- kirrent 8y ago
  I know some train drivers. None of them have engineering degrees or are particularly technically minded in any real way.
- exDM69 8y ago
  I guess I should have been more specific. In my country, train drivers still have engineering degrees. Maybe not everywhere any more. Back in steam engine days the job was more difficult, and needed higher education than today. And train simulators reflect this, operating a steam locomotive is really difficult. Although the diesel electrics are hard, steam locos are a whole different game. I still haven't been able to complete a route without running into trouble with pressure, water levels, fire mass or fuel. Train sims are fun, challenging and entertaining. If you're into slower paced and more strategic gaming, give one of the train sims a go.

smacktoward 8y ago

I see this trend as a reaction to the rise of what David Graeber calls "bullshit jobs" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs). Look at the jobs that people like to simulate: pilot, driver, farmer, heavy machinery operator, emergency responder (police/fireman), etc. What do these jobs all have in common? They're jobs where you can do something, usually with your hands, and immediately see what you did impact the world. That direct connection to outcomes is the opposite of the weird futility that permeates the bullshit job. Getting back to it is what the simulator player is really after, the truck or tractor or whatever is just set dressing. (For bonus points, consider the jobs that are popular to simulate in the context of Marx's theory of alienation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation)

philwelch 8y ago
The problem with "bullshit jobs" isn't necessarily that they're completely unnecessary, it's that they lie many layers of indirection and specialization away from the delivery of value. For example, receptionists and secretaries (two rapidly dying professions, BTW) don't just "serve to make their superiors feel important", they significantly improve the productivity of the people they assist. These jobs are literally an Econ 101 example of comparative advantage. But even those examples are blatantly obvious to anyone who actually works with a receptionist or secretary. Other examples are less so, but effective organizations try to do a good job of showing people how their work fits into the bigger picture. If you're on an assembly line all day drilling three holes into a sheet of steel, by default you're going to feel alienated. The solution to that is to say, no, you're not just drilling three holes into a sheet of steel, you're helping to build a car. And if you do your job well, you're going to build the best cars in the world. And if you have ideas about how to improve the part of the manufacturing process that you're personally involved in, we will continuously improve the process based on your feedback. And so on and so forth. Alienation happens, but it doesn't have to, and when it does happen, it usually either leads to or coincides with poor results. Those solutions I mentioned didn't come from academics or revolutionaries; they came from engineers and industrialists. Pointless jobs do exist, but most of these jobs exist for reasons like "it's hard to efficiently coordinate large organizations", "sometimes game theory leads to shitty outcomes", and "some people are either con artists or cranks".