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Can you elaborate on your statement here? The Great Leap Forward was China aiming to create a socialist state, which is inherently totalitarian. And indeed it d

by rjf72 8y ago

Can you elaborate on your statement here? The Great Leap Forward was China aiming to create a socialist state, which is inherently totalitarian. And indeed it directly lead to massive famine, deaths, and repression as these efforts generally do. China has certainly changed for the positive from this era, which is what I believe the poster you were responding to was referencing. Much of the change has been driven by completely reshaping their economic system into an [internally] free market.

rplst8 8y ago
They have not changed. Well, same wolf, new clothes made by sheep. They persecute religious groups, Muslim, Christian, and Buddhist alike. They control their laborers, harvest organs from prisoners, and they've been occupying Tibet since 1949 and actively pursue families that send their children to Buddhist schools.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- chillacy 8y ago
  I think these are separate issues (but totally valid), the great leap forward wasn't made to persecute minorities insofar as... well the result of a state planned economy. The parent is pointing out that the great leap forward wouldn't happen again because of a switch to capitalism. You're saying the persecution of minorities hasn't changed, which is a different topic. Capitalist economies can still persecute minorities. That requires a different level of regard for human rights that doesn't exist there.
  - pfisch 8y ago
    You are too generous concerning the Great Leap Forward. It really wasn’t some unfortunate accident. There was clear intent to eliminate large swaths of the population of China.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      A reading of wikipedia seems to imply poor execution of a program designed to industrialize in a top-down C&C economy. > Mao Zedong was so inspired by the slogan that China put forward its own objective: to catch up with and surpass the UK in 15 years. > Comrade Khrushchev has told us, the Soviet Union 15 years later will surpass the United States of America. I can also say, 15 years later, we may catch up with or exceed the UK.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
    - rjf72 8y ago
      What would you propose would be the motivation there? I think there's every indication that the Great Leap Forward was intended to turn China into a socialist society which would eventually become a communist one (in accordance with Marx with home the Chinese Communist Party were heavily influenced by) where ultimately not only would no man would ever go without again, but also greatly increasing the overall production of China. Mao certainly realized there would be casualties in the process of transformation, but I see no reason to believe those were the goal. There's far easier and less disruptive ways to kill massive numbers of people than to try to transform a nation to socialism. These systems are invariably well intended but fail to appropriately consider how big a factor the destruction of motivation is. 'Produce a bunch and you can get filthy rich.' tends to be a much better motivation than 'Produce a bunch and give it away to the state, or else the state will hurt you.' As an interesting aside the current PM of China, Xi Jinping, has very intimate ties to all of this. His father was a very high ranking party member in Mao's China. But as is also often the case in these systems, favor is rapidly won or lost. His father was disgraced and imprisoned. Xi himself was arrested as a youth for deserting his state-designed job / role in life and sent to dig ditches at a camp where was housed in a cave with a single blanket as his bed -- living that way for some seven years until he was able to join the communist party (after intially being rejected some 8 times) which set him on the path to today.
pfisch 8y ago
A free market doesn’t prevent genocide. A state where free speech and dissent is violently oppressed is always ripe for genocidal events. There is no real legal system to contest illegal detention and state sanctioned murder in China. It is not a country ruled by law. I’m not saying democracy is some cure all, but the worst and largest genocides by far take place under totalitarian regimes. Just because China kind of sort of has a free market that doesn’t absolve it of the human rights abuses that are rampant in the country. Read about what Mao did. Xi could do the same and no one would be able to stop him.

by rjf72 8y ago

rplst8 8y ago

They have not changed. Well, same wolf, new clothes made by sheep. They persecute religious groups, Muslim, Christian, and Buddhist alike. They control their laborers, harvest organs from prisoners, and they've been occupying Tibet since 1949 and actively pursue families that send their children to Buddhist schools.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
chillacy 8y ago
I think these are separate issues (but totally valid), the great leap forward wasn't made to persecute minorities insofar as... well the result of a state planned economy. The parent is pointing out that the great leap forward wouldn't happen again because of a switch to capitalism. You're saying the persecution of minorities hasn't changed, which is a different topic. Capitalist economies can still persecute minorities. That requires a different level of regard for human rights that doesn't exist there.
- pfisch 8y ago
  You are too generous concerning the Great Leap Forward. It really wasn’t some unfortunate accident. There was clear intent to eliminate large swaths of the population of China.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    A reading of wikipedia seems to imply poor execution of a program designed to industrialize in a top-down C&C economy. > Mao Zedong was so inspired by the slogan that China put forward its own objective: to catch up with and surpass the UK in 15 years. > Comrade Khrushchev has told us, the Soviet Union 15 years later will surpass the United States of America. I can also say, 15 years later, we may catch up with or exceed the UK.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
  - rjf72 8y ago
    What would you propose would be the motivation there? I think there's every indication that the Great Leap Forward was intended to turn China into a socialist society which would eventually become a communist one (in accordance with Marx with home the Chinese Communist Party were heavily influenced by) where ultimately not only would no man would ever go without again, but also greatly increasing the overall production of China. Mao certainly realized there would be casualties in the process of transformation, but I see no reason to believe those were the goal. There's far easier and less disruptive ways to kill massive numbers of people than to try to transform a nation to socialism. These systems are invariably well intended but fail to appropriately consider how big a factor the destruction of motivation is. 'Produce a bunch and you can get filthy rich.' tends to be a much better motivation than 'Produce a bunch and give it away to the state, or else the state will hurt you.' As an interesting aside the current PM of China, Xi Jinping, has very intimate ties to all of this. His father was a very high ranking party member in Mao's China. But as is also often the case in these systems, favor is rapidly won or lost. His father was disgraced and imprisoned. Xi himself was arrested as a youth for deserting his state-designed job / role in life and sent to dig ditches at a camp where was housed in a cave with a single blanket as his bed -- living that way for some seven years until he was able to join the communist party (after intially being rejected some 8 times) which set him on the path to today.

pfisch 8y ago

A free market doesn’t prevent genocide. A state where free speech and dissent is violently oppressed is always ripe for genocidal events. There is no real legal system to contest illegal detention and state sanctioned murder in China. It is not a country ruled by law. I’m not saying democracy is some cure all, but the worst and largest genocides by far take place under totalitarian regimes. Just because China kind of sort of has a free market that doesn’t absolve it of the human rights abuses that are rampant in the country. Read about what Mao did. Xi could do the same and no one would be able to stop him.