5 ms·

Can we just do this already? Nobody these days has a genuine argument as to why cannabis should still be illegal to grow and posses. Honestly if there's one t

Can we just do this already? Nobody these days has a genuine argument as to why cannabis should still be illegal to grow and posses. Honestly if there's one thing that Trump could do to win a teeny bit of respect from liberals it would be to actually legalize cannabis, either by de-scheduling or signing legislation given to him by congress.

strken 8y ago
There are some studies suggesting that legalisation may have increased the number of auto accidents by 3-6%[0], which doesn't sound like a lot but is equal to quite a few deaths. I don't know if this argument is correct, but it at least seems genuine to me. [0] e.g. https://www.iihs.org/frontend/iihs/documents/masterfiledocs.ashx?id=2173 https://www.iihs.org/frontend/iihs/documents/masterfiledocs....
- throwaway415415 8y ago
  We could do with less cars, the numbers of death without drugs is insanely high already. People already drive drunk because there is no good public transport. I’m sure uber/lyft must have decrease road accidents immensly.
- carlivar 8y ago
  Are you talking about the legalization of alcohol in 1933? The number seems low.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  Even if true, that's still minor compared to the millions of lives destroyed in the War On Drugs.
  - carlivar 8y ago
    You mean the War On Some Drugs
- learc83 8y ago
  That study also cited a previous study that found no statistically significant increase. And since this increase was so small, I'd be very sceptical until more research is done, particularly because of the amount of variables that need to be controlled for when comparing crash rates between states. We're only talking about 3 states and a few years here. Not to mention changes caused by selective legalization that wouldn't be the case if it was legal everywhere (higher risk drivers moving to legal states, because of legalization for instance). Also the study was police reported crashes not fatal crashes. If legal pot causes a 6% increase in fatal crashes that's worth serious consideration, if it's a 6% increase in fender benders, not so much.
  - strken 8y ago
    I'm all for skepticism, and agree that it needs to be applied just as much to continuing to criminalize cannabis. I worry sometimes that legalization is seen as a completely solved argument with no grey areas, when that's not the case.
    - learc83 8y ago
      Everything is a trade off. If we made swimming pools illegal we'd prevent a fair number of drowning deaths. But the burden of proof should be on the side that wants to make something illegal. We can talk about regulating use, limiting use through taxation and education etc..., but I think you need definitive evidence of extreme harm that can't be mitigated in any other way before you start putting people in jail for growing a plant.
- riffic 8y ago
  >auto accidents This is a grouping of words that connote happenstance while traffic collisions are generally the predictable outcome of willful, negligent, or criminal actions. #CrashNotAccident https://twitter.com/hashtag/crashnotaccident?lang=en https://twitter.com/hashtag/crashnotaccident?lang=en
- masonic 8y ago
  And that's an inherently underreported stat due to the increase in hit-and-run. When a driver flees the scene,he can't be counted as impaired.
learc83 8y ago
People thought that he might be open to that one day. And then be went and selected Jeff "Good people don't smoke marijuana" Sessions as his Attorney General.
matthewaveryusa 8y ago
I have a weak argument -- here me out: it's a harmless substance that, as a teenager, I used not only to experiment with drugs, but also to experiment with transgressing the law. With marijuana being legal there will no longer be an ultra-safe illegal drug to experiment with -- As I said, very weak argument but that's all I've got :)
- anynms 8y ago
  Depends on your definition of harmless. I only have anecdotal evidence, of course, but I'd argue marijuana is more harmful than LSD. So until that's legalized, there will be ultra-safe illegal drugs to experiment with.
  - ravenstine 8y ago
    > I'd argue marijuana is more harmful than LSD. What's your argument?
    - anynms 8y ago
      The first comparison to make is in the category of physical harm, in which both substances pose the very low risk of physical harm to the user as they both require an insane dose (>100x normal dose) to pose an immediate medical concern. However, if marijuana is smoked (like anything else smoked) it is not good for the health of the user over the long term. In this category, LSD is the clear winner in risk of harm to the user. The other category is, of course, harm to the user's mental health. In my opinion, dependence is a huge part of this category and cannabis, while not particularly addictive, is definitely more addictive and can produce minor to moderate physical withdrawal effects. LSD seems to be the antithesis of addictive. There's also the social harm category that I can't speak to, but the UK Centre for Crime and Justice Studies sponsored a study [0][1] in 2010 that also takes this into account. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036393 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036393 [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2010/11/02/scoring-drugs https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2010/11/02/scoring-...
    - blackflame7000 8y ago
chaostheory 8y ago
This isn’t a conservative vs liberal issue. It has support within both parties. This is a old vs young issue, with those under 45 supporting legalization and older Americans against it
- martinpw 8y ago
  It seems like both political leaning and age are about equally significant: https://news.gallup.com/poll/243908/two-three-americans-support-legalizing-marijuana.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/243908/two-three-americans-supp... Support levels (October 2018): Democrats: 75% Republicans: 53% Under 35: 78% Over 55: 59% Also note that now even older Americans are majority in support.
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    Kind of odd if you think about the fact that old-timers are likely the one who actually would benefit from cannabis legalization the most.
- learc83 8y ago
  The conservative party in America--Republicans--tends to skew much older, so I'd say that makes it defacto liberal vs conservative to some extent.
jjtheblunt 8y ago
Wait, what? Did you miss articles in the medical journals recently that it retards (literally) cognitive abilities in at least teens?
- carlivar 8y ago
  Then we should legalize it so that teen usage will drop. Because IIRC that's the result from the history of societies doing that.
asveikau 8y ago
> Nobody these days has a genuine argument ... There are real dangers for some. eg. In people predisposed to mental illness, THC can trigger psychotic episodes (there is lots written on this topic, just google "thc psychosis"). I witnessed this happen in somebody, and it's scary stuff with real negative consequences. That's not an argument against legalization but I do think the culture needs to not see it as totally harmless.
- S_A_P 8y ago
  I don't disagree with this, and I think the trend of weaponizing marijuana to ridiculous levels of strength is concerning to me. But even at the new crazy strength, as far as I know it has not caused death by overdose. I would prefer that people understand that its possible to over do just about anything that makes you feel good, so lets figure out a smarter way to handle the drug problem than "war".
  - Stratoscope 8y ago
    The "ridiculous levels of strength" is a good thing. It means you can consume far less to get the same result. If pot is five times stronger than it used to be, then you only use a fifth as much. That's not "weaponizing". Nobody I know sits around smoking joint after joint any more, you just have a little bit and you're done. Actually, no one I know smokes any more. It's all vaporizers and edibles now. Modern cannabis is much healthier than the stuff we had in the '60s.
    - asveikau 8y ago
      I haven't looked very deeply and am not an expert, but I do believe there is research suggesting that higher concentrations of THC and less cannabidiol is associated with more psychotic symptoms. Second google hit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801827/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801827/ - says this on page 9. The scenario I have in mind is someone who has latent or "below the surface" susceptibility to schizophrenia or bipolar without visible symptoms and THC triggers their first episode. Most people who use it won't see this. Some will and it will come to them without warning. Denial that this is a possibility however unlikely is not great.

strken 8y ago

There are some studies suggesting that legalisation may have increased the number of auto accidents by 3-6%[0], which doesn't sound like a lot but is equal to quite a few deaths. I don't know if this argument is correct, but it at least seems genuine to me. [0] e.g. https://www.iihs.org/frontend/iihs/documents/masterfiledocs.ashx?id=2173 https://www.iihs.org/frontend/iihs/documents/masterfiledocs....

throwaway415415 8y ago
We could do with less cars, the numbers of death without drugs is insanely high already. People already drive drunk because there is no good public transport. I’m sure uber/lyft must have decrease road accidents immensly.
carlivar 8y ago
Are you talking about the legalization of alcohol in 1933? The number seems low.
BurningFrog 8y ago
Even if true, that's still minor compared to the millions of lives destroyed in the War On Drugs.
- carlivar 8y ago
  You mean the War On Some Drugs
learc83 8y ago
That study also cited a previous study that found no statistically significant increase. And since this increase was so small, I'd be very sceptical until more research is done, particularly because of the amount of variables that need to be controlled for when comparing crash rates between states. We're only talking about 3 states and a few years here. Not to mention changes caused by selective legalization that wouldn't be the case if it was legal everywhere (higher risk drivers moving to legal states, because of legalization for instance). Also the study was police reported crashes not fatal crashes. If legal pot causes a 6% increase in fatal crashes that's worth serious consideration, if it's a 6% increase in fender benders, not so much.
- strken 8y ago
  I'm all for skepticism, and agree that it needs to be applied just as much to continuing to criminalize cannabis. I worry sometimes that legalization is seen as a completely solved argument with no grey areas, when that's not the case.
  - learc83 8y ago
    Everything is a trade off. If we made swimming pools illegal we'd prevent a fair number of drowning deaths. But the burden of proof should be on the side that wants to make something illegal. We can talk about regulating use, limiting use through taxation and education etc..., but I think you need definitive evidence of extreme harm that can't be mitigated in any other way before you start putting people in jail for growing a plant.
riffic 8y ago
>auto accidents This is a grouping of words that connote happenstance while traffic collisions are generally the predictable outcome of willful, negligent, or criminal actions. #CrashNotAccident https://twitter.com/hashtag/crashnotaccident?lang=en https://twitter.com/hashtag/crashnotaccident?lang=en
masonic 8y ago
And that's an inherently underreported stat due to the increase in hit-and-run. When a driver flees the scene,he can't be counted as impaired.

learc83 8y ago

People thought that he might be open to that one day. And then be went and selected Jeff "Good people don't smoke marijuana" Sessions as his Attorney General.

matthewaveryusa 8y ago

I have a weak argument -- here me out: it's a harmless substance that, as a teenager, I used not only to experiment with drugs, but also to experiment with transgressing the law. With marijuana being legal there will no longer be an ultra-safe illegal drug to experiment with -- As I said, very weak argument but that's all I've got :)

anynms 8y ago
Depends on your definition of harmless. I only have anecdotal evidence, of course, but I'd argue marijuana is more harmful than LSD. So until that's legalized, there will be ultra-safe illegal drugs to experiment with.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  > I'd argue marijuana is more harmful than LSD. What's your argument?
  - anynms 8y ago
    The first comparison to make is in the category of physical harm, in which both substances pose the very low risk of physical harm to the user as they both require an insane dose (>100x normal dose) to pose an immediate medical concern. However, if marijuana is smoked (like anything else smoked) it is not good for the health of the user over the long term. In this category, LSD is the clear winner in risk of harm to the user. The other category is, of course, harm to the user's mental health. In my opinion, dependence is a huge part of this category and cannabis, while not particularly addictive, is definitely more addictive and can produce minor to moderate physical withdrawal effects. LSD seems to be the antithesis of addictive. There's also the social harm category that I can't speak to, but the UK Centre for Crime and Justice Studies sponsored a study [0][1] in 2010 that also takes this into account. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036393 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036393 [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2010/11/02/scoring-drugs https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2010/11/02/scoring-...
  - blackflame7000 8y ago

chaostheory 8y ago

This isn’t a conservative vs liberal issue. It has support within both parties. This is a old vs young issue, with those under 45 supporting legalization and older Americans against it

martinpw 8y ago
It seems like both political leaning and age are about equally significant: https://news.gallup.com/poll/243908/two-three-americans-support-legalizing-marijuana.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/243908/two-three-americans-supp... Support levels (October 2018): Democrats: 75% Republicans: 53% Under 35: 78% Over 55: 59% Also note that now even older Americans are majority in support.
- ur-whale 8y ago
  Kind of odd if you think about the fact that old-timers are likely the one who actually would benefit from cannabis legalization the most.
learc83 8y ago
The conservative party in America--Republicans--tends to skew much older, so I'd say that makes it defacto liberal vs conservative to some extent.

jjtheblunt 8y ago

Wait, what? Did you miss articles in the medical journals recently that it retards (literally) cognitive abilities in at least teens?

carlivar 8y ago
Then we should legalize it so that teen usage will drop. Because IIRC that's the result from the history of societies doing that.

asveikau 8y ago

> Nobody these days has a genuine argument ... There are real dangers for some. eg. In people predisposed to mental illness, THC can trigger psychotic episodes (there is lots written on this topic, just google "thc psychosis"). I witnessed this happen in somebody, and it's scary stuff with real negative consequences. That's not an argument against legalization but I do think the culture needs to not see it as totally harmless.

S_A_P 8y ago
I don't disagree with this, and I think the trend of weaponizing marijuana to ridiculous levels of strength is concerning to me. But even at the new crazy strength, as far as I know it has not caused death by overdose. I would prefer that people understand that its possible to over do just about anything that makes you feel good, so lets figure out a smarter way to handle the drug problem than "war".
- Stratoscope 8y ago
  The "ridiculous levels of strength" is a good thing. It means you can consume far less to get the same result. If pot is five times stronger than it used to be, then you only use a fifth as much. That's not "weaponizing". Nobody I know sits around smoking joint after joint any more, you just have a little bit and you're done. Actually, no one I know smokes any more. It's all vaporizers and edibles now. Modern cannabis is much healthier than the stuff we had in the '60s.
  - asveikau 8y ago
    I haven't looked very deeply and am not an expert, but I do believe there is research suggesting that higher concentrations of THC and less cannabidiol is associated with more psychotic symptoms. Second google hit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801827/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801827/ - says this on page 9. The scenario I have in mind is someone who has latent or "below the surface" susceptibility to schizophrenia or bipolar without visible symptoms and THC triggers their first episode. Most people who use it won't see this. Some will and it will come to them without warning. Denial that this is a possibility however unlikely is not great.