6 ms·

Although I haven't been to Toronto, there's an alternative to zoning: great public transportation. In Zurich I can get from any place to any other place easily

Although I haven't been to Toronto, there's an alternative to zoning: great public transportation. In Zurich I can get from any place to any other place easily because the tram/bus/train connections are always waiting for each other, and are almost never too early / late. People can use cars if they need it, but it shouldn't be the first choice generally.

mykowebhn 8y ago
I completely agree with you! And if it only were so easy! Toronto, and Canada, is very much like the US in terms of its reliance on the car to get around. Except in urban centers, and NYC, the first choice of transportation is almost always the car. This is not just a mindset. The lack of a proper transportation infrastructure and the sprawling nature of North American cities make it difficult to get around without a car. In fact, I would say urban sprawl and traffic are worse in Toronto than in most American cities (I'm originally from Toronto and I've lived in the US for more than two decades). And what about the surrounding regions, like York and Peel regions? I would say the prospects for an adequate public transportation infrastructure in the surrounding regions of Toronto are even worse, and the population in the surrounding suburbs rivals the population of Toronto proper.
- neurotrace 8y ago
  That was not my experience with Toronto at all. I lived in the Liberty Village area over the summer and could very easily get around the city via public transit. The only time we drove was to get to get to the movie theater in Etobicoke. Eastern Toronto was extremely easy to get around.
  - mykowebhn 8y ago
    Yes, exactly. Liberty Village is very close to downtown Toronto. I wasn't commenting on the public transportation close to city centers.
onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
Are you saying that Zurich is a champion of affordable housing? Why is Zurich a model we should look to when trying to fix zoning? I'm not knocking their transit. I'm sure it's great. But you can have good transit, zoning, and affordable housing. See Berlin. And, yes, Berlin has it's problems, and I'm sure somewhere else is doing things even better. I'm just curious why Zurich is a model we should look to.
- xiphias2 8y ago
  Zurich is very expensive, so of course I'm not saying this. But it's a beautiful city, so by allowing destroying its center and making houses higher you trade something for something else. To tell you the truth I'm all for getting rid of zoning generally, but it's not as clear cut case as making sure that trains / trams / metros / buses are clean, and run on time, never too crowded, and have predictable connections. Many of my colleagues were living outside Zurich in smaller towns / villages (me too), and we could get to work in 20 minutes, which was for me great actually, I loved sitting on the train and enjoying the beautiful view.
green7ea 8y ago
Public transport is easy when the city is reasonably sized. Toronto is a huge spread out city. The surface area it covers makes public transport really difficult which is not great for the standard of living.
deleted 8y ago
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afterburner 8y ago
Toronto does have good public transportation. Every day, almost a million people use the Toronto subways/buses/streetcars.
- dhritzkiv 8y ago
  In addition, a large number travel to/from the suburbs daily by via regional train system (GO Transit)
  - chongli 8y ago
    I commuted from Kitchener to Toronto for work every day from September to December for co-op on the GO "Express" train. It was 2 hours each way to travel about 100km. It's just about the farthest thing I'd call from "good public transit."
    - hnnh44 8y ago
      Step 1: define "good" Step 2: compare to alternatives, factoring in geography, culture, scale of operations, political environment It's a hugely complex issue. I wouldn't define Toronto's public transit as bad, but it's not world class.
      - chongli 8y ago
        Step 1: define "good" The train takes 2 hours to travel 100km. Cars can do that distance in one hour, despite having to cope with traffic. That's pretty appalling. Good public transit should be faster than a car along its main corridor. Apart from geography, those other factors are reasons, not excuses. Lots of people here look down on public transit and associate it with poor people. That's a problem to be rectified.
    - afterburner 8y ago
      You're living two cities over from where you work. What did you expect? This is not a normal "commute". If you drove that during rush hour, you wouldn't be travelling at max speed the whole time, and likely would also take two hours to travel, potentially more (Google predicts up to 2 hours and 40 minutes).

mykowebhn 8y ago

I completely agree with you! And if it only were so easy! Toronto, and Canada, is very much like the US in terms of its reliance on the car to get around. Except in urban centers, and NYC, the first choice of transportation is almost always the car. This is not just a mindset. The lack of a proper transportation infrastructure and the sprawling nature of North American cities make it difficult to get around without a car. In fact, I would say urban sprawl and traffic are worse in Toronto than in most American cities (I'm originally from Toronto and I've lived in the US for more than two decades). And what about the surrounding regions, like York and Peel regions? I would say the prospects for an adequate public transportation infrastructure in the surrounding regions of Toronto are even worse, and the population in the surrounding suburbs rivals the population of Toronto proper.

neurotrace 8y ago
That was not my experience with Toronto at all. I lived in the Liberty Village area over the summer and could very easily get around the city via public transit. The only time we drove was to get to get to the movie theater in Etobicoke. Eastern Toronto was extremely easy to get around.
- mykowebhn 8y ago
  Yes, exactly. Liberty Village is very close to downtown Toronto. I wasn't commenting on the public transportation close to city centers.

onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago

Are you saying that Zurich is a champion of affordable housing? Why is Zurich a model we should look to when trying to fix zoning? I'm not knocking their transit. I'm sure it's great. But you can have good transit, zoning, and affordable housing. See Berlin. And, yes, Berlin has it's problems, and I'm sure somewhere else is doing things even better. I'm just curious why Zurich is a model we should look to.

xiphias2 8y ago
Zurich is very expensive, so of course I'm not saying this. But it's a beautiful city, so by allowing destroying its center and making houses higher you trade something for something else. To tell you the truth I'm all for getting rid of zoning generally, but it's not as clear cut case as making sure that trains / trams / metros / buses are clean, and run on time, never too crowded, and have predictable connections. Many of my colleagues were living outside Zurich in smaller towns / villages (me too), and we could get to work in 20 minutes, which was for me great actually, I loved sitting on the train and enjoying the beautiful view.

green7ea 8y ago

Public transport is easy when the city is reasonably sized. Toronto is a huge spread out city. The surface area it covers makes public transport really difficult which is not great for the standard of living.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

afterburner 8y ago

Toronto does have good public transportation. Every day, almost a million people use the Toronto subways/buses/streetcars.

dhritzkiv 8y ago
In addition, a large number travel to/from the suburbs daily by via regional train system (GO Transit)
- chongli 8y ago
  I commuted from Kitchener to Toronto for work every day from September to December for co-op on the GO "Express" train. It was 2 hours each way to travel about 100km. It's just about the farthest thing I'd call from "good public transit."
  - hnnh44 8y ago
    Step 1: define "good" Step 2: compare to alternatives, factoring in geography, culture, scale of operations, political environment It's a hugely complex issue. I wouldn't define Toronto's public transit as bad, but it's not world class.
    - chongli 8y ago
      Step 1: define "good" The train takes 2 hours to travel 100km. Cars can do that distance in one hour, despite having to cope with traffic. That's pretty appalling. Good public transit should be faster than a car along its main corridor. Apart from geography, those other factors are reasons, not excuses. Lots of people here look down on public transit and associate it with poor people. That's a problem to be rectified.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    You're living two cities over from where you work. What did you expect? This is not a normal "commute". If you drove that during rush hour, you wouldn't be travelling at max speed the whole time, and likely would also take two hours to travel, potentially more (Google predicts up to 2 hours and 40 minutes).