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I used to be all-in UBI supporter. To my "hacker" mind it appeared like a wonderful hack around issues society is facing. But lately, as I saw our parents retir

I used to be all-in UBI supporter. To my "hacker" mind it appeared like a wonderful hack around issues society is facing. But lately, as I saw our parents retire, I was thinking about what really keep people happy - and as soon as basics are covered, it appears that "being useful" is what jobs are really about. UBI, as a result, may lock people forever in a jobless situation. UBI will not provide enough capital to bootstrap anything, it might disconnect you from people doing something. This can only increase the resentment between employed and unemployed classes. Granted, some will find themselves doing what they wanted to do their whole life (non-profitable) and couldn't because they had to put food on the table. But is this the case for everyone? I am afraid the rest will risk being marked "not useful" for life, and that doesn't sound like something that makes one happy... Sorry, it is just my random philosophical thoughts and no real answers or pieces of advice here...

Qwertystop 8y ago
UBI doesn't prevent you from looking for work on top of it - that's what "unconditional" means here.
- hippich 8y ago
  Indeed. People who want to achieve something - they will be quite happy about it. But seeing retired parents not knowing what to do about their lives (because they dedicated whole life to getting their children ahead and working their ass off to do that, and now they done with it - what next?) - suggests that there is more to it, than just covering basic needs.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    It seems to me that the problem many retiring people run into is that they have been compelled to labor for the entire life by economic necessity and so viewed retirement as an escape into self-fulfillment, without ever having time to consider what self-fulfillment means, and first really are able to even consider the question in their senior years, burdened by mental habits of decades of servile labor. In a system where people don't usually feel an economic compulsion to work if they are at all able (which is probably not a UBI at the poverty-support level usually suggested as a near-term goal, though that might have a shadow of the same effect) you'd have a lot fewer people running into that problem; they'd learn and organize their life around it when they were much younger.
  - 3131s 8y ago
    No need to infantilize the retirement-age elderly -- the ones that want to work can still work, and they'll do so in a better job market with less power asymmetry between employers and employees.
romwell 8y ago
Counterpoint: receiving UBI would not be any more of a "not useful" mark than simply being unemployed. Technically, we all are receiving a UBI of $0 right now. The idea is just to increase that amount to cover rent and food. If everyone's getting it, there is no stigma. (Same disclaimer on random philosophical thoughts and no real answers)
- hippich 8y ago
  Not really talking about stigma here since, as you correctly pointed out, UBI assumes everyone gets it. It is more of an existential question for the person themselves - "what is exactly is my purpose"?

Qwertystop 8y ago

UBI doesn't prevent you from looking for work on top of it - that's what "unconditional" means here.

hippich 8y ago
Indeed. People who want to achieve something - they will be quite happy about it. But seeing retired parents not knowing what to do about their lives (because they dedicated whole life to getting their children ahead and working their ass off to do that, and now they done with it - what next?) - suggests that there is more to it, than just covering basic needs.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  It seems to me that the problem many retiring people run into is that they have been compelled to labor for the entire life by economic necessity and so viewed retirement as an escape into self-fulfillment, without ever having time to consider what self-fulfillment means, and first really are able to even consider the question in their senior years, burdened by mental habits of decades of servile labor. In a system where people don't usually feel an economic compulsion to work if they are at all able (which is probably not a UBI at the poverty-support level usually suggested as a near-term goal, though that might have a shadow of the same effect) you'd have a lot fewer people running into that problem; they'd learn and organize their life around it when they were much younger.
- 3131s 8y ago
  No need to infantilize the retirement-age elderly -- the ones that want to work can still work, and they'll do so in a better job market with less power asymmetry between employers and employees.

romwell 8y ago

Counterpoint: receiving UBI would not be any more of a "not useful" mark than simply being unemployed. Technically, we all are receiving a UBI of $0 right now. The idea is just to increase that amount to cover rent and food. If everyone's getting it, there is no stigma. (Same disclaimer on random philosophical thoughts and no real answers)

hippich 8y ago
Not really talking about stigma here since, as you correctly pointed out, UBI assumes everyone gets it. It is more of an existential question for the person themselves - "what is exactly is my purpose"?