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I choose to believe we could have a better world, where loading a local news site doesn’t look like a virus-ridden Windows 95 desktop, where just trying to talk

I choose to believe we could have a better world, where loading a local news site doesn’t look like a virus-ridden Windows 95 desktop, where just trying to talk with friends isn’t interrupted by.. (checks twitter) payday loan lobbyists. Where the smartest people of my generation are using every dark pattern in the world to take my attention away from what matters to me.

duxup 8y ago
I think it is very possible, even with ads. So ads are often a place where dark patterns happen and such. But take Apple for instance. Apple seems to respect user privacy to a fairly far extent compared to say, Facebook, Google. If apple wasn't around ... we would probably say something about "you can't have these fancy smartphones without someone stealing all your data". But clearly Apple can do it (for a lot of reasons)... so we know it is possible. I feel the same way about ads, it might be different, but it can be done.
- duderific 8y ago
  Apple makes massive profits on the hardware they sell you, that's how they can do it. The software companies that give it away "for free" (Facebook, Google) don't have any way other than advertising or selling/using data to make money.
  - llukas 8y ago
    Where do I sign up for a free android phone?
    - efreak 8y ago
      The _software_ companies give [their _software_] away for free. You can build a phone if you want, install Android on it, and sell it without paying Google anything. There's a ton of Chinese companies doing just that; Amazon does it too.
- chillacy 8y ago
  Privacy is one of the features that helps the iPhone sell for over a thousand dollars. I remember one of the Amazon Kindles sold 2 versions: one with ads that was cheaper, and one without ads that was more expensive. So people do pay at least to get rid of ads (I'm sure both versions collect your data), it just costs more, and most end up not being able to afford it. For all the good in the iPhone, year after year android gains ground worldwide by virtue of being cheaper and more flexible.
  - dfinninger 8y ago
    Just had to replace a Kindle. They sell one version now, with ads, and you can turn them off permanently by making a one-time payment though your Amazon account. They also offer it as a check box during checkout.
    - bartread 8y ago
      I bought a Kindle a few years ago. At the time I wasn't working regularly so didn't have much cash. As a result I didn't check the box and have ads on my Kindle. The ads are almost entirely irrelevant but seem benign enough since they're always for other books (mostly self-published, I suspect) in the Kindle store. They're also limited to the lock screen so hardly intrusive. It's only recently that I've occasionally considered paying the £10 (?) to get rid of them and the reason is pure vanity: I'm now (fortunate to be) in a fancy job with a fancy title and I don't want to look like a cheapskate.
  - tomatocracy 8y ago
    Not sure you can conclude that most can’t afford the ad free version from what’s publicly known. They still sell both versions, presumably if only very very few people bought the ad free version then they would have stopped selling it.
- chairmanmow 8y ago
  Apple's a little better, but anecdotally speaking after deleting facebook from my phone I switched to Apple's News application for reading news on my iPhone, and there are dark patterns in play, or maybe it could be called 'curating' the feed. Point is, there's algorithms and sponsored content hiding inside that app that I don't have much control over. I'd like to read a newspaper like there used to be where we're viewing the same version and the same ads. Apple's not completely innocent they're just not direct about it. I wish they were.
Mirioron 8y ago
Then pay money for those services.
- taurath 8y ago
  Gladly. Its not an option.
  - JacobJans 8y ago
    Many local news sites now have online subscriptions available. Combined with an ad blocker, it seems as though you can generally get a pleasant local news experience, while still supporting the publisher.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      > Many local news sites now have online subscriptions available. Combined with an ad blocker It's kind of disappointing that news website still have ads even after I decide to pay for access.
      - CDSlice 8y ago
        Didn't newspapers do the same thing? You paid for a (physical) subscription to the newspaper which also had ads in it.
wolco 8y ago
It's called a subscription and even with that local newspapers were filled with pages of color soaked ads. Dark patterns existed before your generation..
- taurath 8y ago
  Your point that ads have always existed is well taken, but if newspapers looked like a local news site today people wouldn't have bought them (its more akin to the free weekly tabloids than a real newspaper). Newspapers used to make money through classifieds in addition to subscriptions. If only there were local-oriented services newspapers could provide - I hope someone figures out a better model soon.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    Newspapers had a monopoly on distributing written information back in the day: printing presses, typesetters, journalists, delivery staff, etc are all expensive. Now anyone can self-publish on Medium. Technology has changed the game, and we whatever business models work in the future probably won't be the same as those in the past.
- alexbanks 8y ago
  Kinda seems like you just wanted to assert the person you're responding to is ignorant, when in actuality news papers advertisements are very inherently less "dark" than ads on websites. News papers are static content - they are in no way interactive, which is normally where "dark" advertisements live. Click a thing, see an add. News papers cannot dynamically throw ads into your face, where websites can. But yes, in previous generations bad things were bad, too.

duxup 8y ago

I think it is very possible, even with ads. So ads are often a place where dark patterns happen and such. But take Apple for instance. Apple seems to respect user privacy to a fairly far extent compared to say, Facebook, Google. If apple wasn't around ... we would probably say something about "you can't have these fancy smartphones without someone stealing all your data". But clearly Apple can do it (for a lot of reasons)... so we know it is possible. I feel the same way about ads, it might be different, but it can be done.

duderific 8y ago
Apple makes massive profits on the hardware they sell you, that's how they can do it. The software companies that give it away "for free" (Facebook, Google) don't have any way other than advertising or selling/using data to make money.
- llukas 8y ago
  Where do I sign up for a free android phone?
  - efreak 8y ago
    The _software_ companies give [their _software_] away for free. You can build a phone if you want, install Android on it, and sell it without paying Google anything. There's a ton of Chinese companies doing just that; Amazon does it too.
chillacy 8y ago
Privacy is one of the features that helps the iPhone sell for over a thousand dollars. I remember one of the Amazon Kindles sold 2 versions: one with ads that was cheaper, and one without ads that was more expensive. So people do pay at least to get rid of ads (I'm sure both versions collect your data), it just costs more, and most end up not being able to afford it. For all the good in the iPhone, year after year android gains ground worldwide by virtue of being cheaper and more flexible.
- dfinninger 8y ago
  Just had to replace a Kindle. They sell one version now, with ads, and you can turn them off permanently by making a one-time payment though your Amazon account. They also offer it as a check box during checkout.
  - bartread 8y ago
    I bought a Kindle a few years ago. At the time I wasn't working regularly so didn't have much cash. As a result I didn't check the box and have ads on my Kindle. The ads are almost entirely irrelevant but seem benign enough since they're always for other books (mostly self-published, I suspect) in the Kindle store. They're also limited to the lock screen so hardly intrusive. It's only recently that I've occasionally considered paying the £10 (?) to get rid of them and the reason is pure vanity: I'm now (fortunate to be) in a fancy job with a fancy title and I don't want to look like a cheapskate.
- tomatocracy 8y ago
  Not sure you can conclude that most can’t afford the ad free version from what’s publicly known. They still sell both versions, presumably if only very very few people bought the ad free version then they would have stopped selling it.
chairmanmow 8y ago
Apple's a little better, but anecdotally speaking after deleting facebook from my phone I switched to Apple's News application for reading news on my iPhone, and there are dark patterns in play, or maybe it could be called 'curating' the feed. Point is, there's algorithms and sponsored content hiding inside that app that I don't have much control over. I'd like to read a newspaper like there used to be where we're viewing the same version and the same ads. Apple's not completely innocent they're just not direct about it. I wish they were.

Mirioron 8y ago

Then pay money for those services.

taurath 8y ago
Gladly. Its not an option.
- JacobJans 8y ago
  Many local news sites now have online subscriptions available. Combined with an ad blocker, it seems as though you can generally get a pleasant local news experience, while still supporting the publisher.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    > Many local news sites now have online subscriptions available. Combined with an ad blocker It's kind of disappointing that news website still have ads even after I decide to pay for access.
    - CDSlice 8y ago
      Didn't newspapers do the same thing? You paid for a (physical) subscription to the newspaper which also had ads in it.

wolco 8y ago

It's called a subscription and even with that local newspapers were filled with pages of color soaked ads. Dark patterns existed before your generation..

taurath 8y ago
Your point that ads have always existed is well taken, but if newspapers looked like a local news site today people wouldn't have bought them (its more akin to the free weekly tabloids than a real newspaper). Newspapers used to make money through classifieds in addition to subscriptions. If only there were local-oriented services newspapers could provide - I hope someone figures out a better model soon.
- chillacy 8y ago
  Newspapers had a monopoly on distributing written information back in the day: printing presses, typesetters, journalists, delivery staff, etc are all expensive. Now anyone can self-publish on Medium. Technology has changed the game, and we whatever business models work in the future probably won't be the same as those in the past.
alexbanks 8y ago
Kinda seems like you just wanted to assert the person you're responding to is ignorant, when in actuality news papers advertisements are very inherently less "dark" than ads on websites. News papers are static content - they are in no way interactive, which is normally where "dark" advertisements live. Click a thing, see an add. News papers cannot dynamically throw ads into your face, where websites can. But yes, in previous generations bad things were bad, too.