4 ms·

As someone who lives in Long Island City, the opposition to HQ2 seems mostly coming from a vocal minority. Sure, most people are not in favor of the tax breaks

As someone who lives in Long Island City, the opposition to HQ2 seems mostly coming from a vocal minority. Sure, most people are not in favor of the tax breaks, but they're also primarily in favor of Amazon coming in general[0]. There is so much misinformation about these tax breaks...so many people are saying, "We're spending $3 billion! This is unconscionable!" without understanding that NYC isn't actually going to be cutting a check to Amazon and tax revenues will almost certainly be net positive as a result. Really, the political posturing about this is bonkers. The local council member, Jimmy Van Bramer, now says he is allegedly against this deal[1]. Here's his signature on a letter in favor of the deal just about a year prior[2]. In my mind, the biggest problem is where we're going to put all these people. I really hope (but am not holding my breath) that our local pols have the courage to vote in favor of upzoning large swaths of the area to provide enough housing for everyone. Otherwise the most vulnerable among us will just get pushed further to the fringes. I'm against tax breaks for special interests, as I think it is a prime example of crony capitalism. I'm disappointed that Cuomo and DeBlasio offered any argument besides "NYC is a dynamic city with a great talent pool and halfway decent infrastructure for US cities." But the amount of fear-mongering, inconsistencies, and falsehoods swirling around HQ2 really irritate me. [0] https://poll.qu.edu/new-york-city/release-detail?ReleaseID=2589 https://poll.qu.edu/new-york-city/release-detail?ReleaseID=2... [1] https://twitter.com/JimmyVanBramer/status/1093172791686377472 https://twitter.com/JimmyVanBramer/status/109317279168637747... [2] https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/athena/files/2018/11/13/5beb0912e4b0caeec2beaa08.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://big.asse...

specialp 8y ago
Yes it probably will end up net benefit for NYC but in any deal you have to ask did we overpay? Google bought 111 8th avenue, one of the biggest buildings in area in NYC, and also the premier datacenter location for 1.8 billion and added a lot of employees. Tax break: 0. Facebook and other large tech companies have also been expanding their staff in NYC for no tax break. NIMBYs aside in the local area I am for Amazon coming to NYC along with any other company. NYC is in effect cutting a check to them because now they are losing revenue, and starting a precedent that was previously not needed to get big companies here. The market conditions of NYC have attracted business just fine.
- Nelkins 8y ago
  I agree, the precedent being set is the worst part of this. And I do think that we "overpaid," in the sense that this erodes any sense of trust and fairness in NYC/NYS government (which I think is critical to a smoothly running society). These tax breaks bolster the idea that political means are a viable route towards a business advantage. I was just expressing my frustration that the situation is being misrepresented by many parties.
bad-joke 8y ago
> Otherwise the most vulnerable among us will just get pushed further to the fringes. The most vulnerable among us? Like the homeless? Amazon suspended part of its expansion plans in Seattle pending the outcome of a City Council vote on a new tax on large employers that would have funded programs aimed at providing affordable housing and helping the homeless[1]. Under pressure from Amazon, the city repealed the tax[2]. [1]http://fortune.com/2018/05/03/amazon-seattle-building-homeless-tax/ http://fortune.com/2018/05/03/amazon-seattle-building-homele... [2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/12/seattle-backs-off-tax-to-help-homeless-after-amazon-business-groups-mount-fierce-opposition https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/12/seatt...
- Nelkins 8y ago
  Yes, like the homeless. I'm not exactly sure if you're trying to refute a point I made...In my experience the greatest impediment to helping the homeless or rent-burdened comes from NIMBYs and excessive local control. 100% affordable projects regularly face vicious opposition from local members of the community[0]. I was at one of the community board meetings for the linked project and the mental contortions people go through to justify not building housing are really amazing. EDIT: Another tidbit, just something I find interesting. The linked Curbed article shows my viewpoint, and what I believe to be an accurate reflection of reality. But articles regularly come out that try and spin things differently. See for example this NYMag article[1]. Pretty amazing that people could not be in support of 100% affordable housing, built by Habitat for Humanity, for homeless LBGTQ seniors. But, people find a way. [0] https://ny.curbed.com/2019/1/23/18194444/nolita-new-york-affordable-housing-elizabeth-street-garden https://ny.curbed.com/2019/1/23/18194444/nolita-new-york-aff... [1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/when-a-developer-comes-for-your-little-neighborhood-park.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/when-a-developer-com...
  - weeksie 8y ago
    That's the fault of the developer not being clear about what was going to happen to the Elizabeth Street Garden. Not to mention the screeching YIMBY side of the equation pretending that opposition to the project was just because a bunch of rich people were throwing a shitfit and somehow hated LGBT retirees. The ESG is a really unique area in a part of downtown that doesn't have a ton of greenspace. The nearest parks are Washington Square, Tompkins, and Sarah Roosevelt, all across neighborhood boundaries from Nolita. ESG is pretty unique, a green space full of collected sculptures—not easy to replicate. The proposed solution does preserve some of the space and will keep the area open to the public which is what tipped me in the direction of supporting the development but I do hope they buy some of the existing sculptures to put on the public green area instead of turning it into a shitty lawn. I understand the YIMBY side, I am mostly all in on YIMBY-ism, but the rhetoric on this is bonkers. It also conveniently ignores that there is already a large public housing development right next to ESG.
throwaway427 8y ago
Unfortunately a good number of people in that vocal minority are in the media.
hessproject 8y ago
As someone who also lives in Long Island City, my opposition comes mostly from the fact that other companies like Google were able to bring similar types and amounts of jobs without the media circus or significant tax breaks. I fear that articles like this make it seem like Amazon is doing some great service to us by being here when they clearly have plenty of business motivation to be here as well. It's not exactly a secret that companies are having difficulty hiring experienced engineers, and the NYC metro has one of the largest talent pools. But what is Amazon bringing that those other tech companies aren't? I'm also concerned about lack of housing stock and potential displacement of people in relatively affordable neighborhoods like Astoria and Sunnyside. Plus, even with the addition of CBTC The 7 train seems ill equipped to handle its current daily ridership of 800k+. To me it seems unfair to simply brush aside legitimate criticisms of a deal as lack of understanding or political posturing.
- quxbar 8y ago
  Hey Fellow LIC resident! I largely support the deal because, as far as I can tell, only $500m is actually specific to amazon, the rest of the tax credits come from existing programs that apply to all businesses. I would prioritize revoking preferential treatment to banks and luxury developers before trying to improve this particular deal. That being said, I think Amazon should be pressured to make additional concessions relating to public transit, specifically because that's the greatest factor in their ability to hire. I actually think CBTC did wonders for the 7, it's now more reliably and regular than any other line I've ever lived on (A/C/E, B/D/F/M, 4/5/6, and the unspeakably awful G)

specialp 8y ago

Yes it probably will end up net benefit for NYC but in any deal you have to ask did we overpay? Google bought 111 8th avenue, one of the biggest buildings in area in NYC, and also the premier datacenter location for 1.8 billion and added a lot of employees. Tax break: 0. Facebook and other large tech companies have also been expanding their staff in NYC for no tax break. NIMBYs aside in the local area I am for Amazon coming to NYC along with any other company. NYC is in effect cutting a check to them because now they are losing revenue, and starting a precedent that was previously not needed to get big companies here. The market conditions of NYC have attracted business just fine.

Nelkins 8y ago
I agree, the precedent being set is the worst part of this. And I do think that we "overpaid," in the sense that this erodes any sense of trust and fairness in NYC/NYS government (which I think is critical to a smoothly running society). These tax breaks bolster the idea that political means are a viable route towards a business advantage. I was just expressing my frustration that the situation is being misrepresented by many parties.

bad-joke 8y ago

> Otherwise the most vulnerable among us will just get pushed further to the fringes. The most vulnerable among us? Like the homeless? Amazon suspended part of its expansion plans in Seattle pending the outcome of a City Council vote on a new tax on large employers that would have funded programs aimed at providing affordable housing and helping the homeless[1]. Under pressure from Amazon, the city repealed the tax[2]. [1]http://fortune.com/2018/05/03/amazon-seattle-building-homeless-tax/ http://fortune.com/2018/05/03/amazon-seattle-building-homele... [2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/12/seattle-backs-off-tax-to-help-homeless-after-amazon-business-groups-mount-fierce-opposition https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/12/seatt...

Nelkins 8y ago
Yes, like the homeless. I'm not exactly sure if you're trying to refute a point I made...In my experience the greatest impediment to helping the homeless or rent-burdened comes from NIMBYs and excessive local control. 100% affordable projects regularly face vicious opposition from local members of the community[0]. I was at one of the community board meetings for the linked project and the mental contortions people go through to justify not building housing are really amazing. EDIT: Another tidbit, just something I find interesting. The linked Curbed article shows my viewpoint, and what I believe to be an accurate reflection of reality. But articles regularly come out that try and spin things differently. See for example this NYMag article[1]. Pretty amazing that people could not be in support of 100% affordable housing, built by Habitat for Humanity, for homeless LBGTQ seniors. But, people find a way. [0] https://ny.curbed.com/2019/1/23/18194444/nolita-new-york-affordable-housing-elizabeth-street-garden https://ny.curbed.com/2019/1/23/18194444/nolita-new-york-aff... [1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/when-a-developer-comes-for-your-little-neighborhood-park.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/when-a-developer-com...
- weeksie 8y ago
  That's the fault of the developer not being clear about what was going to happen to the Elizabeth Street Garden. Not to mention the screeching YIMBY side of the equation pretending that opposition to the project was just because a bunch of rich people were throwing a shitfit and somehow hated LGBT retirees. The ESG is a really unique area in a part of downtown that doesn't have a ton of greenspace. The nearest parks are Washington Square, Tompkins, and Sarah Roosevelt, all across neighborhood boundaries from Nolita. ESG is pretty unique, a green space full of collected sculptures—not easy to replicate. The proposed solution does preserve some of the space and will keep the area open to the public which is what tipped me in the direction of supporting the development but I do hope they buy some of the existing sculptures to put on the public green area instead of turning it into a shitty lawn. I understand the YIMBY side, I am mostly all in on YIMBY-ism, but the rhetoric on this is bonkers. It also conveniently ignores that there is already a large public housing development right next to ESG.

throwaway427 8y ago

Unfortunately a good number of people in that vocal minority are in the media.

hessproject 8y ago

As someone who also lives in Long Island City, my opposition comes mostly from the fact that other companies like Google were able to bring similar types and amounts of jobs without the media circus or significant tax breaks. I fear that articles like this make it seem like Amazon is doing some great service to us by being here when they clearly have plenty of business motivation to be here as well. It's not exactly a secret that companies are having difficulty hiring experienced engineers, and the NYC metro has one of the largest talent pools. But what is Amazon bringing that those other tech companies aren't? I'm also concerned about lack of housing stock and potential displacement of people in relatively affordable neighborhoods like Astoria and Sunnyside. Plus, even with the addition of CBTC The 7 train seems ill equipped to handle its current daily ridership of 800k+. To me it seems unfair to simply brush aside legitimate criticisms of a deal as lack of understanding or political posturing.

quxbar 8y ago
Hey Fellow LIC resident! I largely support the deal because, as far as I can tell, only $500m is actually specific to amazon, the rest of the tax credits come from existing programs that apply to all businesses. I would prioritize revoking preferential treatment to banks and luxury developers before trying to improve this particular deal. That being said, I think Amazon should be pressured to make additional concessions relating to public transit, specifically because that's the greatest factor in their ability to hire. I actually think CBTC did wonders for the 7, it's now more reliably and regular than any other line I've ever lived on (A/C/E, B/D/F/M, 4/5/6, and the unspeakably awful G)