5 ms·

What "sketchy tactics" are you referring to? Aside from an eminent domain seizure -- and these are quite rare -- there really isn't anything they can do to jus

by drugme 8y ago

What "sketchy tactics" are you referring to? Aside from an eminent domain seizure -- and these are quite rare -- there really isn't anything they can do to just "get" your building.

stronglikedan 8y ago
They've used eminent domain to seize assets for condos and such in the past, which I think is what OP is referring to. https://www.nc-eminent-domain.com/eminent-domain-basics/private-development/ https://www.nc-eminent-domain.com/eminent-domain-basics/priv...
- drugme 8y ago
  But I meant ... aside from eminent domain.
  - stronglikedan 8y ago
    misunderstood - thought you were excluding EDS as a sketchy tactic
gerbilly 8y ago
Although unlikely in this case, but sometimes 'they' promote urban blight of entire neighbourhoods till it becomes a slum and even poor people move out, then buy the whole block of properties for cheap.
- drugme 8y ago
  Yeah that used to happen in decades past - but as a tactic is basically apocryphal by now. Basically in a gentrifying market (i.e. the very properties "they" are after) that tactic (even if you could pull it off these days) isn't applicable.
  - floatrock 8y ago
    The ol' call-it-blight-and-seize-it trick is what happened in Wisconsin with the holdout landowners for the foxconn factory last year. Here's the top google result for example: https://www.wisbar.org/NewsPublications/InsideTrack/Pages/article.aspx?Volume=10&Issue=12&ArticleID=26461 https://www.wisbar.org/NewsPublications/InsideTrack/Pages/ar... Yeah, in wisconsin the post-blight-declaration seizure was through eminent domain instead of bankers and private investors, but honestly, the wisconsin shennanigans really blur that line.
    - drugme 8y ago
      Right - but again, this was part of an eminent domain play. What I was trying to suss out is whether there's any evidence that this is a (widespread, feasible) tactic outside of ED land grabs.
  - gerbilly 8y ago
    Some people say the 2008 mortgage crisis was sort of a land grab. It would probably be giving the 'financial engineers' who came up with credit default swaps too much credit to say that they planned it that way all along. But as a side effect, tons of properties dropped in value and were, surprise surprise, sold mostly in blocks.
rticesterp 8y ago
OR they can raise property taxes or your appraisal to the point where the taxes aren't affordable. Then you have to sell on your terms to prevent a forced tax lien sell.
- hnal943 8y ago
  you can't raise property taxes for just one property. An appraisal could target a particular property, but fraudulently raising the appraisal value would be illegal.
- drugme 8y ago
  Is there evidence that actually occurs in NYC?
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Appraisals aren't based on the theoretical value of a land at its most profitable use. They're based on the estimated market value of the land based on its current use.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    They are based on the current condition, including current constraints on use (zoning, etc.) That isn't restricted to current use (if alternative use was worth more even given current condition, such that the highest paying offer were it sold would be a buyer planning to switch uses, that would be reflected in appraisal.)
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      It turns out we're both wrong at least with respect to the way NY appraises property. https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/learn/howassess.htm https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/learn/howassess.htm (This is very different from how CA appraises property, and doesn't take into account how counties appraise tangible business property.)
      - 8y ago
Spooky23 8y ago
Real estate is the nastiest business. Everything from systematic harassment to unleashing the local code enforcement to torching the building can be used to make your life miserable. Light up the building and get it declared unsafe, the city then bulldozes the building and hands the bill to the owner.
cc439 8y ago
While eminent domain is the overarching legal means through which all properties are seized, there is plenty of sketchiness to be found in the process of declaring a property "blight" so that it can be seized. My city has done a good job of condemning blighted properties in terms of having 0 public scandals surrounding their decisions, but there's still a tinge of corruption surrounding every old mill that is declared to be blight only for the original structure to be converted to luxury flats with only minor modification and landscaping. "Blight" to me means a property and any structures on that property being so unfit for use that it will require significant rehabilitation (think major ddmolition and environmental cleanup) to return it to a bare-ground state before it can be used for anything else. Seizing a propery, giving it away for nothing/practically nothing, and then watching a developer flip it for a massive profit reeks of corruption when the same developers happen to be the winners over and over. There's also the issue of slightly sketchy property tax reassessments that are a hallmark of many neighborhood revitalization projects. There is almost always a law stipulating the maximum year-over-year rate increases but slap the maximum rate on a stubborn holdout for enough years in a row and that 15% maximum annual reassessment increase (the maximum in my city) can turn even the least valuable property imaginable into an unaffordable anchor around the owners neck within a few years.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  > but slap the maximum rate on a stubborn holdout for enough years in a row and that 15% maximum annual reassessment increase (the maximum in my city) can turn even the least valuable property imaginable into an unaffordable anchor around the owners neck within a few years. Oh yes, the old 'tax them off their land' strategy. Many old timers who 'owned' land in the gulf islands near Vancouver Island complain about that one.
- drugme 8y ago
  OK I guess the sketchiness and corruption varies substantially by region, then. In NYC at least, though unfortunately ED plays (famously) do happen - they're quite rare, and in any case don't (simply) happen at the developer's bidding. My whole point is: people have been (almost) making it sound like a typical speculator (in NYC) can just grease a few palms and get some tasty piece of property condemned and handed over to them. Maybe in Rhode Island, but in NYC... no.
namlem 8y ago
Messing with the power/gas hookups. Failing inspections on petty grounds. Mandating certain expensive repairs or maintenance. There are ways.

by drugme 8y ago

What "sketchy tactics" are you referring to? Aside from an eminent domain seizure -- and these are quite rare -- there really isn't anything they can do to just "get" your building.

stronglikedan 8y ago

They've used eminent domain to seize assets for condos and such in the past, which I think is what OP is referring to. https://www.nc-eminent-domain.com/eminent-domain-basics/private-development/ https://www.nc-eminent-domain.com/eminent-domain-basics/priv...

drugme 8y ago
But I meant ... aside from eminent domain.
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  misunderstood - thought you were excluding EDS as a sketchy tactic

gerbilly 8y ago

Although unlikely in this case, but sometimes 'they' promote urban blight of entire neighbourhoods till it becomes a slum and even poor people move out, then buy the whole block of properties for cheap.

drugme 8y ago
Yeah that used to happen in decades past - but as a tactic is basically apocryphal by now. Basically in a gentrifying market (i.e. the very properties "they" are after) that tactic (even if you could pull it off these days) isn't applicable.
- floatrock 8y ago
  The ol' call-it-blight-and-seize-it trick is what happened in Wisconsin with the holdout landowners for the foxconn factory last year. Here's the top google result for example: https://www.wisbar.org/NewsPublications/InsideTrack/Pages/article.aspx?Volume=10&Issue=12&ArticleID=26461 https://www.wisbar.org/NewsPublications/InsideTrack/Pages/ar... Yeah, in wisconsin the post-blight-declaration seizure was through eminent domain instead of bankers and private investors, but honestly, the wisconsin shennanigans really blur that line.
  - drugme 8y ago
    Right - but again, this was part of an eminent domain play. What I was trying to suss out is whether there's any evidence that this is a (widespread, feasible) tactic outside of ED land grabs.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  Some people say the 2008 mortgage crisis was sort of a land grab. It would probably be giving the 'financial engineers' who came up with credit default swaps too much credit to say that they planned it that way all along. But as a side effect, tons of properties dropped in value and were, surprise surprise, sold mostly in blocks.

rticesterp 8y ago

OR they can raise property taxes or your appraisal to the point where the taxes aren't affordable. Then you have to sell on your terms to prevent a forced tax lien sell.

hnal943 8y ago
you can't raise property taxes for just one property. An appraisal could target a particular property, but fraudulently raising the appraisal value would be illegal.
drugme 8y ago
Is there evidence that actually occurs in NYC?
gamblor956 8y ago
Appraisals aren't based on the theoretical value of a land at its most profitable use. They're based on the estimated market value of the land based on its current use.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  They are based on the current condition, including current constraints on use (zoning, etc.) That isn't restricted to current use (if alternative use was worth more even given current condition, such that the highest paying offer were it sold would be a buyer planning to switch uses, that would be reflected in appraisal.)
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    It turns out we're both wrong at least with respect to the way NY appraises property. https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/learn/howassess.htm https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/learn/howassess.htm (This is very different from how CA appraises property, and doesn't take into account how counties appraise tangible business property.)
    - 8y ago

Spooky23 8y ago

Real estate is the nastiest business. Everything from systematic harassment to unleashing the local code enforcement to torching the building can be used to make your life miserable. Light up the building and get it declared unsafe, the city then bulldozes the building and hands the bill to the owner.

cc439 8y ago

While eminent domain is the overarching legal means through which all properties are seized, there is plenty of sketchiness to be found in the process of declaring a property "blight" so that it can be seized. My city has done a good job of condemning blighted properties in terms of having 0 public scandals surrounding their decisions, but there's still a tinge of corruption surrounding every old mill that is declared to be blight only for the original structure to be converted to luxury flats with only minor modification and landscaping. "Blight" to me means a property and any structures on that property being so unfit for use that it will require significant rehabilitation (think major ddmolition and environmental cleanup) to return it to a bare-ground state before it can be used for anything else. Seizing a propery, giving it away for nothing/practically nothing, and then watching a developer flip it for a massive profit reeks of corruption when the same developers happen to be the winners over and over. There's also the issue of slightly sketchy property tax reassessments that are a hallmark of many neighborhood revitalization projects. There is almost always a law stipulating the maximum year-over-year rate increases but slap the maximum rate on a stubborn holdout for enough years in a row and that 15% maximum annual reassessment increase (the maximum in my city) can turn even the least valuable property imaginable into an unaffordable anchor around the owners neck within a few years.

gerbilly 8y ago
> but slap the maximum rate on a stubborn holdout for enough years in a row and that 15% maximum annual reassessment increase (the maximum in my city) can turn even the least valuable property imaginable into an unaffordable anchor around the owners neck within a few years. Oh yes, the old 'tax them off their land' strategy. Many old timers who 'owned' land in the gulf islands near Vancouver Island complain about that one.
drugme 8y ago
OK I guess the sketchiness and corruption varies substantially by region, then. In NYC at least, though unfortunately ED plays (famously) do happen - they're quite rare, and in any case don't (simply) happen at the developer's bidding. My whole point is: people have been (almost) making it sound like a typical speculator (in NYC) can just grease a few palms and get some tasty piece of property condemned and handed over to them. Maybe in Rhode Island, but in NYC... no.

namlem 8y ago

Messing with the power/gas hookups. Failing inspections on petty grounds. Mandating certain expensive repairs or maintenance. There are ways.