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So that if they are happier then that IS success. Job or no job is irrelevant.

by matz1 8y ago

sakisv 8y ago
Unfortunately the prevailing ideology dictates that if you're not working you are worthless and you should not feel happy.
- RIMR 8y ago
  That may be the prevailing American ideology, but it certainly isn't the prevailing ideology worldwide. The idea that being bad at capitalism makes you deserving of misery is just awful - our country is too wealthy to act that way.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  It's a tough sell you gotta admit it. That money came from someone making an effort (even if it was in form of large [reluctant]corporate taxes). Also slacking (I am half a slacker on the way to ~zero) is toxic on the long run. I always thought of universal income as way to allow me to grow without a burden. Learning, helping, producing (whether art, tools, ...). It's supposed to help strengthen the social tissue.
  - matz1 8y ago
    yes that money came from someone making an effort, but on the premise that it came from someone who derive happiness by doing the work not because of necessity.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      it's hard to ensure honestly but I think we agree, the goal is to reduce faux-slavery due to the need for basics necessities
  - manicdee 8y ago
    In a nation that has its own fiat currency, the money does not come from someone making an effort. It is printed, invented. Taxes only control inflation.
mr_overalls 8y ago
There is the small matter that someone else's labor is filling their bellies. Humans try to take advantage of any system, and it's not hard to see where the failure point for UBI is - it's everyone becoming a freeloader, with no one left to do the work necessary to feed, clothe, educate, etc. the people on UBI.
yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
It is absolutely relevant. That money isn't just pulled from the ether. Another citizen worked to produce that value which is distributed through UBI. One happy person at the expense of someone else is not success.
- matz1 8y ago
  The money (tax) will be pulled regardless. It's the cost of doing business. You should be producing value because producing value make you happier. Basic income enable both type people to be happy.
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    > You should be producing value because producing value make you happier That is your opinion, and to some degree it’s an opinion I agree with. That doesn’t mean the opinion has any basis in reality however.
    - matz1 8y ago
      Can u clarify, How is it not have any basis in reality ?
      - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
        I mean I would expect you to back up your claim with some kind of scientific study that humans in general opt to produce value for society purely altruistically. I highly doubt that’s the case, but I have an open mind and I’d be delighted to be proven wrong. As I understand it, most societal benefit and technological advancement has come from humans acting selfishly. You develop an idea while seeking profit — not necessarily money; this behaviour far predates money — and society benefits as a side effect (if the development of that idea is in some way beneficial).
        matz1 8y ago
        >I mean I would expect you to back up your claim with some kind of scientific study that humans in general opt to produce value for society purely altruistically. That's not what I claiming at all. What I'm saying is if you want to produce value then go ahead keep producing value for whatever reason, it could be purely for selfish reason for all i care. But You still have to pay tax for your income though, thats for allowing you to do business. Of course if you produce value you will be a lot more richer than people who don't produce value, thats an advantage for you. And for people who can't or won't produce value, fine, here is basic income for you so that you can still fulfil your basic needs. So its not one happy person at the expense of someone else.
2019ideas 8y ago
This is bad economics. Jobs are literally necessary for our society to function. If everyone was jobless but 'happy', they wouldn't be happy when the food runs out. Or houses start to get old. Or iphones stop being built and websites are taken offline. Economics are more important than a single individuals happiness, its our survival. EDIT: Don't shoot the messenger. Fun ideas are not reality.
- matz1 8y ago
  That would be solved by ai/automation, which they reason why basic income is needed in the first place.
  - 2019ideas 8y ago
    >That would be solved by ai/automation Lots of these topics have different outcomes when you start to assume sci-fi tech. I won't argue about what life should be like when we build fusion reactors or figure out nuclear 3D printing.
    - matz1 8y ago
      At least we can start work/strive for it right now.
nabla9 8y ago
They were also healthier. Those who received UBI stayed healthier than the control group but the article fails to mention that. When you consider that the group was selected from those receiving long term unemployment benefits (Finland has different types) and were by large unemployable, them staying healthier is important result.

So that if they are happier then that IS success. Job or no job is irrelevant.

by matz1 8y ago

So that if they are happier then that IS success. Job or no job is irrelevant.

Unfortunately the prevailing ideology dictates that if you're not working you are worthless and you should not feel happy.

RIMR 8y ago
That may be the prevailing American ideology, but it certainly isn't the prevailing ideology worldwide. The idea that being bad at capitalism makes you deserving of misery is just awful - our country is too wealthy to act that way.
agumonkey 8y ago
It's a tough sell you gotta admit it. That money came from someone making an effort (even if it was in form of large [reluctant]corporate taxes). Also slacking (I am half a slacker on the way to ~zero) is toxic on the long run. I always thought of universal income as way to allow me to grow without a burden. Learning, helping, producing (whether art, tools, ...). It's supposed to help strengthen the social tissue.
- matz1 8y ago
  yes that money came from someone making an effort, but on the premise that it came from someone who derive happiness by doing the work not because of necessity.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    it's hard to ensure honestly but I think we agree, the goal is to reduce faux-slavery due to the need for basics necessities
- manicdee 8y ago
  In a nation that has its own fiat currency, the money does not come from someone making an effort. It is printed, invented. Taxes only control inflation.

mr_overalls 8y ago

There is the small matter that someone else's labor is filling their bellies. Humans try to take advantage of any system, and it's not hard to see where the failure point for UBI is - it's everyone becoming a freeloader, with no one left to do the work necessary to feed, clothe, educate, etc. the people on UBI.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago

It is absolutely relevant. That money isn't just pulled from the ether. Another citizen worked to produce that value which is distributed through UBI. One happy person at the expense of someone else is not success.

matz1 8y ago
The money (tax) will be pulled regardless. It's the cost of doing business. You should be producing value because producing value make you happier. Basic income enable both type people to be happy.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  > You should be producing value because producing value make you happier That is your opinion, and to some degree it’s an opinion I agree with. That doesn’t mean the opinion has any basis in reality however.
  - matz1 8y ago
    Can u clarify, How is it not have any basis in reality ?
    - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
      I mean I would expect you to back up your claim with some kind of scientific study that humans in general opt to produce value for society purely altruistically. I highly doubt that’s the case, but I have an open mind and I’d be delighted to be proven wrong. As I understand it, most societal benefit and technological advancement has come from humans acting selfishly. You develop an idea while seeking profit — not necessarily money; this behaviour far predates money — and society benefits as a side effect (if the development of that idea is in some way beneficial).
      - matz1 8y ago
        >I mean I would expect you to back up your claim with some kind of scientific study that humans in general opt to produce value for society purely altruistically. That's not what I claiming at all. What I'm saying is if you want to produce value then go ahead keep producing value for whatever reason, it could be purely for selfish reason for all i care. But You still have to pay tax for your income though, thats for allowing you to do business. Of course if you produce value you will be a lot more richer than people who don't produce value, thats an advantage for you. And for people who can't or won't produce value, fine, here is basic income for you so that you can still fulfil your basic needs. So its not one happy person at the expense of someone else.

2019ideas 8y ago

This is bad economics. Jobs are literally necessary for our society to function. If everyone was jobless but 'happy', they wouldn't be happy when the food runs out. Or houses start to get old. Or iphones stop being built and websites are taken offline. Economics are more important than a single individuals happiness, its our survival. EDIT: Don't shoot the messenger. Fun ideas are not reality.

matz1 8y ago
That would be solved by ai/automation, which they reason why basic income is needed in the first place.
- 2019ideas 8y ago
  >That would be solved by ai/automation Lots of these topics have different outcomes when you start to assume sci-fi tech. I won't argue about what life should be like when we build fusion reactors or figure out nuclear 3D printing.
  - matz1 8y ago
    At least we can start work/strive for it right now.

nabla9 8y ago

They were also healthier. Those who received UBI stayed healthier than the control group but the article fails to mention that. When you consider that the group was selected from those receiving long term unemployment benefits (Finland has different types) and were by large unemployable, them staying healthier is important result.