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I would argue that consciousness is the least subjective phenomenon there is. I think that the difficulty in defining it comes for the fact that good definitio
by TelmoMenezes 8y ago
I would argue that consciousness is the least subjective phenomenon there is.
I think that the difficulty in defining it comes for the fact that good definitions are so fundamentally simple that people miss their depth. My favorite one is this, and please give it a chance before rejecting it. See if it distinguishes consciousness from all other concepts:
Consciousness is that which cannot be doubted.
- tylerjwilk00 8y agoI disagree. The problem is that we are convinced that any experience or object can be defined within language. The truth is that somethings are undefinable. And as soon as you attempt to define it, label it, you have already lost it.
- rrdcfff 8y agoI agree with that. But the conclusion is very interesting. If something cannot be expessed within a language, it also cannot be described used any formal system, or mathematics in general. Which should be very distrurbing to modern naturalists, to whom (to the first approximation) everything is just clouds of particles (whose behavior can be described using mathematics).
- bencollier49 8y agoThat's a great definition. I think we can all objectively agree on that definition, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the thing being described by the definition is any less subjective.
- mfoy_ 8y agoActually I think it's quite possibly the worst definition of consciousness I've ever seen. At best (assuming conscious cannot be doubted) it's like saying "Cars are those things which move fast". In the sense that it describes one property of cars, or consciousness, but not a unique property. Other things move fast, not just cars, other things could be beyond doubt than just consciousness. At worst (assuming consciousness can be doubted) it's like saying "Cars are those things which flap around", which is utterly nonsense, and unhelpful. Plenty of things "flap around", but cars don't... My point is, if you don't already have a strong preconception of what "consciousness" is, that definition is worse than no definition at all.
- naasking 8y ago> Consciousness is that which cannot be doubted. There are many propositions that cannot be doubted, so that's insufficiently precise. For instance, I do not doubt that I perceive things via my senses, but perception doesn't require consciousness. It also leaves entirely undefined what "doubt" means. Your attempted definition would seem to assume that only conscious entities can "doubt", but is that really true?
- goatlover 8y ago> I do not doubt that I perceive things via my senses You could if you were stuck in Inception land. We dream that we perceive things. Also if you were a brain in a vat, you would not be perceiving anything.
- naasking 8y agoI actually didn't mean to say "via my senses", what I meant is that I definitely perceive things, period. That encompasses both of your scenarios. Thanks for the correction!
- goatlover 8y agoIt's more correct to say you have experiences of perception. But those experiences are not always true (the tree you dream of seeing is imaginary), and thus it's possible to doubt them, and also create skeptical scenarios where you never truly perceive anything. Arguably, Neo never actually perceived anything until he took the red pill and woke up.
- naasking 8y ago> Arguably, Neo never actually perceived anything until he took the red pill and woke up. I don't think that's possible. His perceptual faculties would have been completely undeveloped in that case, so he wouldn't have even been able to see, stand, hear, or anything. Arguably, the matrix made use of his perceptual faculties. It would be orders of magnitude easier to do so than trying to reproduce them in the vat apparatus. I think people are fond of trying to separate perception and experience, but I'm not sure that's valid. I don't think an eliminativist would make this distinction, for example.
- hopler 8y agoSo if I have self-doubt, my self is not conscious?
- mfoy_ 8y agoSo as soon as you start questioning your own consciousness you are immediately no longer considered "conscious"... So using this definition of consciousness, and looking at Plato's most famous quote: The unexamined life... is apparently the only conscious one. Huh.
- criddell 8y agoWhat do you mean by cannot be doubted? It might be clearer if you eliminate the negative.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mfoy_ 8y agoIf I doubt you are conscious, are you then, by definition, not conscious?