5 ms·

I don't understand the revisionist conflation of the EU and Germany. Germany are not the main power in Europe, although they are a significant part of it.

by dvdcxn 8y ago

chosenbreed37 8y ago
> I don't understand the revisionist conflation of the EU and Germany. Germany are not the main power in Europe, although they are a significant part of it. Who would say is the main power?
- dvdcxn 8y ago
  If we're pretending the EU doesn't exist (which seems to be what's happening here), then it's clearly Russia.
  - simias 8y ago
    I don't understand what you're trying to say, Russia is an important diplomatic and military power but economically its GDP is barely above Spain and quite far below Germany, the UK, France and Italy. If you take the EU as a whole its GDP is more than 13 times greater than that of Russia (22 trillion vs. 1.6 trillion USD). It's definitely a significant power but I don't see how you could argue that it's "clearly" the main continental power. However it's probably the regional power with the highest nuisance potential for the EU (alongside Turkey).
- Panoramix 8y ago
  The point is that they are a union. For instance, France, the Netherlands and Belgium together are more "powerful" than Germany. It's not like the Germans simply determines whatever they want.
- Tsubasachan 8y ago
  There is no main power in Europe. Each country, down to Lichtenstein, has struggled for centuries to gain and maintain its independence. What you do have are blocs and factions. But if you think Germany can actually tell any country on how to vote you need a European history lesson.
rusk 8y ago
Yes, in fairness. The UK have always been a heavy hitter in Europe, the fact that they failed to redistribute the spoils is a domestic matter. France are a large military industrial power too. There are other strong voices such as the Dutch, the Polish and the Spanish. This whole thing about fitting up Germany to be the puppet master is just ignorance borne of envy for their social model, industrial output and success on the international export market.
nabla9 8y ago
Revisionist conflation is silly, but Germany definitely is the main power within EU. EU decision making for big issues: 1. Leaders of France and Germany meet to draw out a plan. 2. They negotiate with few other big countries to form a block. Valuable horse-trading happens here. 3. The European Council meets and small countries realize that the table is already made for them. They are never part of the process from the start. They are allowed to do some tweaks but that's it.
- dvdcxn 8y ago
  > 1. Leaders of France and Germany meet to draw out a plan. So...the main power in Europe is not Germany, it's 'France and Germany'. Important distinction.
  - nabla9 8y ago
    Germany is definitely the leading force behind the two, but yes, they work closely together.
- Certhas 8y ago
  Except that that's also a caricature that hasn't been true in a while. Germany is one of several large powers in the EU, but small countries have considerable influence, and can and do block decisions/legislation all the time. That's why there is a push to end the national vetos on various issues. Seriously, the idea that the EU, where the smallest country has a veto over virtually everything, and where Germany is the largest of several large democratic powers, and where everything that happens is a compromise negotiated carefully while balancing dozens of competing interests, is in _any_ way related to "what Germany wanted in WWII" is deeply offensive. And yet I've encountered it again and again, online and in person. This type of idiotic idea, unbound by the reality of what the EU is and does, and enabled and encouraged by opportunistic press and politicians, is exactly what brought us Brexit.
  - nabla9 8y ago
    > in _any_ way related to "what Germany wanted in WWII" i I was not arguing that and I specially said so in the beginning. Brits are just sore because they won the war but lost the peace (relative to Germany). Small countries have veto power, but using veto always creates a crisis. That's not proper way to do decisions, but Germany forces it to others. The inability to be part of the decision process from the beginning is real problem. You either vote to spoil everything or get small confessions, but you are never part of the inner circle.

I don't understand the revisionist conflation of the EU and Germany. Germany are not the main power in Europe, although they are a significant part of it.

by dvdcxn 8y ago

I don't understand the revisionist conflation of the EU and Germany. Germany are not the main power in Europe, although they are a significant part of it.

chosenbreed37 8y ago

> I don't understand the revisionist conflation of the EU and Germany. Germany are not the main power in Europe, although they are a significant part of it. Who would say is the main power?

dvdcxn 8y ago
If we're pretending the EU doesn't exist (which seems to be what's happening here), then it's clearly Russia.
- simias 8y ago
  I don't understand what you're trying to say, Russia is an important diplomatic and military power but economically its GDP is barely above Spain and quite far below Germany, the UK, France and Italy. If you take the EU as a whole its GDP is more than 13 times greater than that of Russia (22 trillion vs. 1.6 trillion USD). It's definitely a significant power but I don't see how you could argue that it's "clearly" the main continental power. However it's probably the regional power with the highest nuisance potential for the EU (alongside Turkey).
Panoramix 8y ago
The point is that they are a union. For instance, France, the Netherlands and Belgium together are more "powerful" than Germany. It's not like the Germans simply determines whatever they want.
Tsubasachan 8y ago
There is no main power in Europe. Each country, down to Lichtenstein, has struggled for centuries to gain and maintain its independence. What you do have are blocs and factions. But if you think Germany can actually tell any country on how to vote you need a European history lesson.

rusk 8y ago

Yes, in fairness. The UK have always been a heavy hitter in Europe, the fact that they failed to redistribute the spoils is a domestic matter. France are a large military industrial power too. There are other strong voices such as the Dutch, the Polish and the Spanish. This whole thing about fitting up Germany to be the puppet master is just ignorance borne of envy for their social model, industrial output and success on the international export market.

nabla9 8y ago

Revisionist conflation is silly, but Germany definitely is the main power within EU. EU decision making for big issues: 1. Leaders of France and Germany meet to draw out a plan. 2. They negotiate with few other big countries to form a block. Valuable horse-trading happens here. 3. The European Council meets and small countries realize that the table is already made for them. They are never part of the process from the start. They are allowed to do some tweaks but that's it.

dvdcxn 8y ago
> 1. Leaders of France and Germany meet to draw out a plan. So...the main power in Europe is not Germany, it's 'France and Germany'. Important distinction.
- nabla9 8y ago
  Germany is definitely the leading force behind the two, but yes, they work closely together.
Certhas 8y ago
Except that that's also a caricature that hasn't been true in a while. Germany is one of several large powers in the EU, but small countries have considerable influence, and can and do block decisions/legislation all the time. That's why there is a push to end the national vetos on various issues. Seriously, the idea that the EU, where the smallest country has a veto over virtually everything, and where Germany is the largest of several large democratic powers, and where everything that happens is a compromise negotiated carefully while balancing dozens of competing interests, is in _any_ way related to "what Germany wanted in WWII" is deeply offensive. And yet I've encountered it again and again, online and in person. This type of idiotic idea, unbound by the reality of what the EU is and does, and enabled and encouraged by opportunistic press and politicians, is exactly what brought us Brexit.
- nabla9 8y ago
  > in _any_ way related to "what Germany wanted in WWII" i I was not arguing that and I specially said so in the beginning. Brits are just sore because they won the war but lost the peace (relative to Germany). Small countries have veto power, but using veto always creates a crisis. That's not proper way to do decisions, but Germany forces it to others. The inability to be part of the decision process from the beginning is real problem. You either vote to spoil everything or get small confessions, but you are never part of the inner circle.