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Please don't use "High German" in English to mean (some perceived) "Standard German". It's bad (and incorrect) enough to use "Hochdeutsch" in German, but "High

Please don't use "High German" in English to mean (some perceived) "Standard German". It's bad (and incorrect) enough to use "Hochdeutsch" in German, but "High German" has a specific meaning in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages and the dialect spoken in Hannover is not in fact a High German one.

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madez 8y ago
Wikipedia calls it Standard (High) German. To be more specific, I meant German Standard High German. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German
- tom_mellior 8y ago
  Right, but that standard is more about the written standard language than about the language as spoken in Hannover. I know it's a trope that TV news announcers supposedly pronounce things like they are pronounced in Hannover, but that pronounciation is not a standard. And for whatever it's worth, the Auslautverhärtung you referred to in several places in this thread is also just a Northern regional thing: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#Germ... Here (eastern Austria) "Rad" and "Rat" (can) sound different.
  - madez 8y ago
    There is a defacto standard, and telling otherwise to non-speakers is just misleading. Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard. What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'?
    - tom_mellior 8y ago
      > There is a defacto standard Yes, for TV news announcers. > Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard. Says who? Not Wikipedia, which says that that's a regionalism and quotes sources. Where is the standard codified? > What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'? This is a trick question: If I answer the same as you pronounce it, you'll say "see, it's standard!", and if I answer the other way, you'll say "well, it's not my fault that you don't speak Standard German™". That said, it's 'd'. If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'".
      - madez 8y ago
        > Where is the standard codified? You answer yourself: > Yes, for TV news announcers. > If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'". Do you have a recording of that? Besides that, I wonder why you are so confrontative. I don't mean to.
        tom_mellior 8y ago
        > You answer yourself: No, I meant, where is the standard issued by the Kultusministerkonferenz, like there is for Standard German spelling? A convention is not a standard. > Do you have a recording of that? I'd say it kind of like the Swiss German speaker here: https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw And coming back to the original Rat/Rad distinction, https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de and https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de do sound different. The second "Rad" speaker (from southern Germany) makes almost no 'd' or 't' sound at all, but the same speaker pronounces "Rat" with a very hard and clear 't'.
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      - jackewiehose 8y ago
        >> There is a defacto standard > Yes, for TV news announcers. and for everything else on TV, netflix, etc. What else would define a standard?

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madez 8y ago

Wikipedia calls it Standard (High) German. To be more specific, I meant German Standard High German. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German

tom_mellior 8y ago
Right, but that standard is more about the written standard language than about the language as spoken in Hannover. I know it's a trope that TV news announcers supposedly pronounce things like they are pronounced in Hannover, but that pronounciation is not a standard. And for whatever it's worth, the Auslautverhärtung you referred to in several places in this thread is also just a Northern regional thing: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#Germ... Here (eastern Austria) "Rad" and "Rat" (can) sound different.
- madez 8y ago
  There is a defacto standard, and telling otherwise to non-speakers is just misleading. Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard. What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'?
  - tom_mellior 8y ago
    > There is a defacto standard Yes, for TV news announcers. > Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard. Says who? Not Wikipedia, which says that that's a regionalism and quotes sources. Where is the standard codified? > What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'? This is a trick question: If I answer the same as you pronounce it, you'll say "see, it's standard!", and if I answer the other way, you'll say "well, it's not my fault that you don't speak Standard German™". That said, it's 'd'. If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'".
    - madez 8y ago
      > Where is the standard codified? You answer yourself: > Yes, for TV news announcers. > If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'". Do you have a recording of that? Besides that, I wonder why you are so confrontative. I don't mean to.
      - tom_mellior 8y ago
        > You answer yourself: No, I meant, where is the standard issued by the Kultusministerkonferenz, like there is for Standard German spelling? A convention is not a standard. > Do you have a recording of that? I'd say it kind of like the Swiss German speaker here: https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw And coming back to the original Rat/Rad distinction, https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de and https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de do sound different. The second "Rad" speaker (from southern Germany) makes almost no 'd' or 't' sound at all, but the same speaker pronounces "Rat" with a very hard and clear 't'.
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    - jackewiehose 8y ago
      >> There is a defacto standard > Yes, for TV news announcers. and for everything else on TV, netflix, etc. What else would define a standard?