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As a native speaker: Generally no, but it depends. The "t" in "Rat" is pronounced much harder than the "d" in "Rad" is. BUT: The more and more you go into the
by floqqi 8y ago
As a native speaker: Generally no, but it depends.
The "t" in "Rat" is pronounced much harder than the "d" in "Rad" is. BUT: The more and more you go into the north of Germany, lets say Hamburg for example, they have a very similar pronouncing of "t" and "d". Both often sound very hard (more like an "t"). Whereas people in the south tend to pronounce both letters more soft, like a "d".
But in general they are pronounced differently.
- madez 8y agoin standard high German, which you'll find for example in Hanover, Rad and Rat are phonetically completely identical. In dialects they may be pronounced differently.
- tom_mellior 8y agoPlease don't use "High German" in English to mean (some perceived) "Standard German". It's bad (and incorrect) enough to use "Hochdeutsch" in German, but "High German" has a specific meaning in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages and the dialect spoken in Hannover is not in fact a High German one.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- madez 8y agoWikipedia calls it Standard (High) German. To be more specific, I meant German Standard High German. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German
- tom_mellior 8y agoRight, but that standard is more about the written standard language than about the language as spoken in Hannover. I know it's a trope that TV news announcers supposedly pronounce things like they are pronounced in Hannover, but that pronounciation is not a standard. And for whatever it's worth, the Auslautverhärtung you referred to in several places in this thread is also just a Northern regional thing: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#Germ... Here (eastern Austria) "Rad" and "Rat" (can) sound different.
- madez 8y agoThere is a defacto standard, and telling otherwise to non-speakers is just misleading. Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard. What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'?
- tom_mellior 8y ago> There is a defacto standard Yes, for TV news announcers. > Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard. Says who? Not Wikipedia, which says that that's a regionalism and quotes sources. Where is the standard codified? > What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'? This is a trick question: If I answer the same as you pronounce it, you'll say "see, it's standard!", and if I answer the other way, you'll say "well, it's not my fault that you don't speak Standard German™". That said, it's 'd'. If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'".
- madez 8y ago> Where is the standard codified? You answer yourself: > Yes, for TV news announcers. > If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'". Do you have a recording of that? Besides that, I wonder why you are so confrontative. I don't mean to.
- tom_mellior 8y ago> You answer yourself: No, I meant, where is the standard issued by the Kultusministerkonferenz, like there is for Standard German spelling? A convention is not a standard. > Do you have a recording of that? I'd say it kind of like the Swiss German speaker here: https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw And coming back to the original Rat/Rad distinction, https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de and https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de do sound different. The second "Rad" speaker (from southern Germany) makes almost no 'd' or 't' sound at all, but the same speaker pronounces "Rat" with a very hard and clear 't'.