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I like the analogies, but I'd like to nitpick, if I may. "While the grammar is mostly regular here, two things make this challenging: the nonsensical assignmen
by madez 8y ago
I like the analogies, but I'd like to nitpick, if I may.
"While the grammar is mostly regular here, two things make this challenging: the nonsensical assignment of genders to nouns and (...)"
The given examples for weird assignment of genders are inadequate because they are explained by common rules.
Das Mädchen: Diminutive words are always neutral, and Mädchen is the diminutive of Magd.
Die Männlichkeit: Words ending on 'keit', 'heit', or 'ung' are always female.
"..., but imagine trying to hear the difference between Rat and Rad over a bad phone line."
It does not make a difference if the phone line is good or bad; the words Rat and Rad are pronounced identical, thanks to the Auslautverhärtung.
- pantalaimon 8y ago> the words Rat and Rad are pronounced identical, thanks to the Auslautverhärtung. Are they though? > Ich habe einen Rat für dich. > Ich habe ein Rad für dich.
- contradictioned 8y agoAnd at least spoken, it can be difficult to understand, if someone said "einen" or "ein"; if they would care for the difference at all.
- pantalaimon 8y agoYea if you are not making an effort to pronounce it formal you'd say > Ich hab 'nen Rat für dich > Ich hab 'n Rad für dich where they sound the same.
- pjmlp 8y agoYou can go one step further replacing ich with ick. :)
- pantalaimon 8y agoBut then it can be > Ick hab 'nen Rad/Rat für dich. either way!
- Tomte 8y agoYes, they are pronounced identically. I couldn't believe it. Neither could my fellow students in Phonetics and Phonology. But the spectrogram doesn't lie. Looks exactly the same.
- madez 8y agoWhy is it difficult to believe that there are phonetic collisions? There are even lexical collisions with _different_ phonetics like in Weg vs weg. The rules behind the shift in pronunciation can be looked up by searching for Auslautverhärtung. Isn't this A1-level German?
- codeflo 8y agoBecause the final consonant is actually pronounced softly in related forms ("Rad/Räder" vs. "Rat/Räte"), German speakers tend to "hear" a difference, purely by association, that isn't there phonetically.
- madez 8y ago> Because the final consonant is actually pronounced softly in related forms ("Rad/Räder" vs. "Rat/Räte") Because it isn't anymore the final consonant in the listed related forms. The rule is that simple. Note that it also affects some vowels. > German speakers tend to "hear" a difference, purely by association, that isn't there phonetically. This is so annoying. Some then try to prove you wrong and try to stress the soft consonants at the end of words until realizing that it sounds stupid and wrong. Such stubbornness.
- floqqi 8y agoAs a native speaker: Generally no, but it depends. The "t" in "Rat" is pronounced much harder than the "d" in "Rad" is. BUT: The more and more you go into the north of Germany, lets say Hamburg for example, they have a very similar pronouncing of "t" and "d". Both often sound very hard (more like an "t"). Whereas people in the south tend to pronounce both letters more soft, like a "d". But in general they are pronounced differently.
- madez 8y agoin standard high German, which you'll find for example in Hanover, Rad and Rat are phonetically completely identical. In dialects they may be pronounced differently.
- tom_mellior 8y agoPlease don't use "High German" in English to mean (some perceived) "Standard German". It's bad (and incorrect) enough to use "Hochdeutsch" in German, but "High German" has a specific meaning in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages and the dialect spoken in Hannover is not in fact a High German one.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- madez 8y agoWikipedia calls it Standard (High) German. To be more specific, I meant German Standard High German. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German
- tom_mellior 8y agoRight, but that standard is more about the written standard language than about the language as spoken in Hannover. I know it's a trope that TV news announcers supposedly pronounce things like they are pronounced in Hannover, but that pronounciation is not a standard. And for whatever it's worth, the Auslautverhärtung you referred to in several places in this thread is also just a Northern regional thing: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#Germ... Here (eastern Austria) "Rad" and "Rat" (can) sound different.
- agapon 8y agoFWIW, for me as a Ukrainian, both of this examples would be natural because in Ukrainian we have some similar rules. Diminutives of a particular form are always neutral gender (e.g. дівчатко / divchatko). And words meaning properties / traits are always female even if a trait would be characteristic of a male (e.g. чоловічість).